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Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:59 am
by Ted Cox
It's nearly impossible to put an exact date on Alexander tubas made before 1975. 1975 is the year serial numbers showed up, but even those numbers are tricky. You'll have a number most likely on the valve cluster that all match. These numbers don't mean a thing; they are put on to keep track when the valve assembly is put together. Don't believe any "romantic" notions regarding what that little number means. If the bell has a v shaped gusset, you know the instrument is pre 1975. It was around that time Alex outsourced their bells to Meinl and how they were made changed. If you put up some photos, I'll take a stab at it.
Ted

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:04 am
by tbn.al
You have to be very careful when you date an Alex. Some folks round these parts wound up married to 'em.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:50 am
by TubaRay
Casca Grossa wrote:Make sure you bring flowers, wine, and wear a tie. Dinner and a movie is always good. :P
I'm married now, and have been for some time, but I always preferred dating girls. Not that I don't find an Alexander tuba attractive, mind you.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:26 am
by Tom
I found the factory to be most helpful when I contacted them with the exact same question about my own Alexander. It was sold to me as a 1960s Alexander 163 CC when, in fact, it's a 1983 per Alexander records.

What leads you to believe that it's from the mid teens?

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:54 am
by Ted Cox
Your tuba isn't from the teens. In the Alexander store, they have a tuba from I believe 1910 in a glass case. It's completely different, mostly the shape of the bell. I would say your tuba is from the 50's.
My friends at Alexander speak better english than we do, so don't worry about writing in english.
It's nice to know the age, but it really doesn't matter as long as you enjoy the horn. Older isn't better or worse as they are all interesting and different just as they are. You have a beautiful, old tuba.
Ted

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:02 pm
by Ted Cox
Thinking about this horn a bit more, I think the biggest clue to its age is the linkage. I don't know at what point Alexander changed the linkage and valve paddles to what we know today. They probably don't know either as it was a long time ago. My oldest Alex is probably from the very late 50's, I think before 1961. I don't have the clock springs on mine so it is surely older. It's too bad they didn't put serial numbers on these old horns. Back then I doubt anyone gave a thought to any of the instruments made being played in the 21st century.
Ted

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:58 pm
by Ted Cox
Building an instrument like an Alexander "anything" is a team effort within the shop. When I was in the building where they make the instruments, that team effort is evident everywhere. They had three tubas on a big table in various states of production and saw a couple of different people working on the tubas. All their brass instruments are hand made. It's amazing! 80% of manufacturing is horns, 10% Wagner tubas and the other 10% tubas and trumpets. They make about 80 horns per month, all of them sold before they make them. If you want a tuba, you order it with a down payment and wait. I still think the tuba is 50's, but I could be wrong. I would bet 50's before I bet 1917. I'll be curious to find out. Most likely Reimund will answer your email and he'll make a guess at it.
Ted

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:36 am
by Chris Mayer
Hi everybody,

I just want to share some info on an older Alex tuba.

In Feb 2012, I have acquired this 6 valve Alex Wiener Tuba (3+3). Based on an Alex Instrument catalogue from 1967 as one depicted in Heyde's "Das Ventilblasinstrument: Seine Entwicklung Im Deutschsprachigen Raum Von Den Anfangen Bis Zur Gegenwart (Instruments with Valves: Their Development in german spoken areas from the beginning up to presence), ISBN 3765102253", I though this Tuba is from the 50- to 60-ties:

- spiral spring,
- s-linkage
- valve caps
- no serial # on the 2nd valve
- 38 cm bell diameter (1967 catalogue has 36 cm bell diameter)
- hand hammered bell, no gusset
- 440 pitch

It turned out, that the Tuba was made 1938.
- 1938 engaved on bell garland
- oak leave engravement, never seen on post war garland engravement
- smaller garland width

Pictures have been taken as purchased. There were some wrinkles in the bell alraedy removed. The body had just the small dents visible in the picture (removed at the Alex Shop in the meantime). Compression is still very good. I had Alexander put the bearings they have used in their anniversary French Horn 103 to the S-linkages to eliminated the noise from the older steel pins. Sound is full and resonant.

Conclusion:
- I might have one old the oldest Alex Tubas arround but all the little details (bell diameter, no gusset) have made me believe this is a post-war 50-60 ties tuba. I was off by 20 to 30 years.
- As long as the mechanics work (compression) and the material is in good shape (no zinc corrosion within the brass, no cracks) age does not matter. Its a good tuba and just by accident more than 70 years old. (However, I know how Alex F tubas can look and play like after some 30-40 years intense use in military or philharmonic orchestra. This tuba must have been sitting arround for some time. I also believe, that the uncommon 3+3 setup saved the tuba from beeing worn out)
-If I would have known the age beforehand, I would have been biased and thought twice, maybe not even went to the shop.

Chris

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:10 am
by Ted Cox
Thanks for sharing the photo of this wonderful old F tuba. I would like it if you could post a clear photo of the engraving on the bell garland, including the date. When I looked at the photo, before reading what you wrote, what jumped out at me was the narrowness of the garland. This is a model 156 F tuba with the Viennese fingering system. I have one of these horns, but it was converted so that anyone could play it. My bell diameter is 370 cm. The bell diameter specs. for both the 155 and 157 are 380 cm. A diameter of 360 cm would be quite small and probably a very clear sound. The city of Mainz was bombed in WWII and the Alexander building was destroyed. Some time must have passed to not only wait for the war to end, but also rebuild and retool. A tuba from 1938 makes sense and it's a wonder that it survived, considering history. I think your theory about it not being played much due to the fingering system is spot on. If you saw my 50 year old plus F tuba, you would think it was made recently due to the condition. Thanks for sharing the info. and the photo.
Ted

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:01 pm
by jeopardymaster
PM sent.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:38 pm
by ftempas
Don't know if your question was answered, but I have a 163 that I know was built in 1971 (I picked it up from the factory) that (other than the silver plate on mine) looks very similar. Same paddles, linkages (with bronze bushings), bracing, and engraving on the valve caps.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:12 am
by Ben
Responses from Alexander can take a while. You may end up waiting a week up to a month, depending on their holiday vacations. They will get back to you. I believe when I emailed them (in english), they contacted me directly with their aproximite answer from some of the "old workers" There was no direct record of my instrument, but they did confirm the design was consistent with the story I have been given when I purchased the instrument.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:46 am
by Daniel C. Oberloh
Just thought I would add to the mix...

A few years back, I restored a truly old Alx BBb. Guess on its age was about 1910. String linkage, no wreath on the original bell (had to be replace with a new Alex bell as it was toast). The new bell I put on has a wreath. Pretty much everything else was saved. I rebuilt the rotors and levers as well. The bell was not engraved but simply stamped with a die reading Alexander Mienze (sp?). I have included an image taken at its completion, just prior to shipping. Cool horn.Happy Holidays.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com
Image

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:09 pm
by j.picard
This year, I bought a 164 (Kaiser) BBb Alexander made for the danish army in 1960: the year is printed on the bell. My tuba is exacly like yours except for the size and the silver plating.
Jacques Picard.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:43 am
by Chris Mayer
Hi everybody and I wish you a Happy New Year.

Now after the Holidays, I have taken some detailed pictures of the garland of my presumably 1938 Alex 156 (3+3 valves). As Ted indicated, the garland is smaller than that of current models (25 mm versus 35 mm).

The 1938 engraving on the garland is about 4 mm in height and at the rear side of the garland. Gebr. Alexander is commonly known, whereas the oak leaf engraving left and right to "Gebr. Alexander Mainz" is also special.

I have set up the Tuba to play in 1, 1/2 and 1 1/2 with the left hand (valve 1 to 3). Right hand is 1 1/2, 1/2+, 2 1/2 (valve 4 to 6).

Gives some very good fingerings such as 5+6 for fis below the stuff (instead of 2+4) or the change from right hand 4+5 to left hand 1 for des to es above the staff (VW) which, for me, works much faster than any 2+3 to 1 triggering on a standard set-up.

BTW, after 32 years of hard Tuba playing ( I am 46 now), I have decided last July to move to french horn (Alex 103) to explore new frontiers and have not played tuba since then. My tuba mouthpiece feels like blowing into a car tire. Anyway, with the tuba buzzing experince, change is progressing very well in terms of tone quality and range and I am exploring all the wonderfull literature for horn (Mozart 3, Strauss 1, Saint Saens, Franz, Schumann, Charbrier). And the best thing of all, after having played BB, CC, F and Es Tuba over the years, I am immediatelly familiar with F and B Horn in Bass Key, Horn in E, Es, B or C on F and B side.

In writing this, I might be willing to trade my F Tuba, as it would only sit arround, for a nice french Horn. I am curious if that would work, as I know there are some french Horn -Tuba double players on this board

Now as I have opended up 2 new topics I will stop. If you want to have more info on the F-Tuba, please send me an email.

regards

Chris

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:30 am
by tubadoctor
Hello Tubenet folks!

I'd love to revisit this thread and all of the knowledgeable folks on it, if you wouldn't mind. I have had two CC 163's in the past. Loved em both, but got rid of them each for different reasons. Most recently, I picked up a silver plated BBb 163 that was in a pretty sad state, but still played great!

https://imgur.com/gallery/86CpMWN" target="_blank" target="_blank

Can anyone hazard a guess at the age on this one? Leadpipe is not original, obviously... Unsure if those extra long ferrules are original or modifications early on. Cloclwork setup is all original. I'm debating on swapping it out for a modern Miraphone set and uniball linkage, but I just love the look and feel of the old spatulas enough at this point to live with them as is... Thanks in advance!

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:20 pm
by Heavy_Metal
Might be older than you think. It looks a lot like mine, and we think mine dates back to around 1900, give or take.

Those clocksprings are different from mine- mine have adjustable spring tension.

Does yours have a kranz on the inside of the bell as well as the outside?

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:41 pm
by tubadoctor
no kranz on the inside on this one.

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:47 pm
by tubadoctor
any Alex gurus out there able to chime in?

Re: Dating an Alex

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:30 am
by TheBerlinerTuba
Hello tubadoctor,

your Alexander 163 looks to have been made in the 1920s. It's hard to be sure from the photos, but most of the contrabass tubas built by Alexander before WW2 tend to have a slightly tighter bend in the top and bottom bows and yours seems to have that more 'narrow' bend. After WW2 they opened up 2-3cm in width, but this hard to tell from your photos. If the paddle assembly is original, the spring barrels have no profile which is a dead giveaway for 1920s. Into the 1930s they start to get a smoother rounded shape which lasts until the 1970s.

Perhaps the tuba was built for a military kapelle in high pitch, thus the later lengthened slides, but is only a guess. In southern Germany until the early 1930s most groups tended towards A=450ish and after WW2 many horns were modified to bring them down to 440Hz

Regards from Berlin,
The Berliner Tuba