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A comment from the Jumbo Sousa @ the Symphony thread, led me to post this...

Several years ago, in a talk given by Marin Alsop, she stated that she was not overly concerned about the aging demographics of orchestra audiences.

Her premise was one that I had not considered, previously. Her idea was that for many, "classical music" is a taste that one tends to develop, later in life. The subtle spiritual nuances, and emotional values represented by that kind of music is often lost on kids in their 20's (for instance), who crave excitement & loud music. Alsop's idea is that as we age & slow down, we start to develop more introspection, and an appreciation of the more subtle things in life. [All of this is paraphrasing, by the way!]. Hence the people you see around you in the auditorium tend to be middle aged & up!

On a parallel note, a friend told me of an article that he read, in which they talked about a renovation which was being made to the Chicago Symphony Hall, some years ago. An old 1960's newspaper was discovered in a wall which was ripped down. In that paper, was an article which heralded the end of classical music, because most of the people in the audiences for symphony concerts had grey hair, and presumably would be gone in the near future, leaving the auditoriums empty! Well, I presume that most of those people are gone by now (unless Willard Scott has been featuring them on Smucker's jars, lately!).

Perhaps Ms. Alsop is on to something, 'cause we seem to have a new crop of "grey heads" populating auditoriums now.

Although I feel this has some truth, I do not completely agree. I, as a seventeen year old, recently saw the Philly Orchestra perform Beethoven's First Piano Concerto and highlights from the Ring Cycle, with my 16 year old friend. Although older individuals were there, there was a large crop of 30-40 year olds, and a few more teenagers. I just thought I'd share that. (By the way, it was my first orchestra experience! I loved it!)

tstryk wrote:The more educated a person becomes, the more they are open to all forms of music.

That is true.

(...but you really need to do something about that avatar!)

I'm not sure the finances impact the size of the house greatly. Some of the folks in the seats are surely donors but most just bought a ticket. Without the finances there of course wouldn't be any performers, but education, or lack thereof, bears some responsibility in the decline. I am reminded of a scripture from Proverbs, "Train a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it." Personally my earliest musical rememberances are of lying under the piano while my mother played Rachmaninov preludes. Kids today will remember listening to rock/pop/rap/etc. on the car radio. It's hard to turn the corner when you are old if there was no preparation. I don't mean to criticize the schools either, the important education has to happen at home. If our kids grow up listening to only rap, or jazz, or classical they are missing out.

bloke wrote:

tbn.al wrote:I'm not sure the finances impact the size of the house greatly.

Maybe we don't understand each other's points...??

"Finances" affect *viability*. Without "finances", everything goes "poof" into the night...g...o...n...e - gone.

Please read third sentence.

If you want to fix the finances, orchestras might consider going the movie tavern/restaurant route. If I had the money, I'd buy a large warehouse in a redeveloping entertainment district that overlooks a river and re-open it as a restaurant with live theater, live musicians, murder mystery, etc.

Given that without finances there would be little or no classical music performance. The OP was discussing the fact that according to the old article's premise there should be no one left in the audience by now. However, there is an audience, however smaller. My point addressed the audience not the finances. It must be easier to learn to appreciate any form of music if one has a background of some sort. If left to the advertising/Wall Street gurus there will be nothing of substance left. Only what will sell and be cheap to produce will exist. In my opinion that will be computer produced trash and professional instrumentalists will cease to exist. End of rant.

I address both the audience and the finances in my post.

Please don't underestimate the draw of eating and drinking during performances to people in younger demographics who have relatively less free time.

I've been coming here since '96 or '97, when it was hosted on the jalapeno server at Indiana, and while I miss that aspect of the old threading system, quotes and multi-quotes seem to approximate it well enough.

Maybe if more musicians had views similar to Benjamin Zander's view towards who classical music was for, that the greying in the audience would reverse.

His view is presented here:
http://www.ted.com/talks/benjamin_zande ... ssion.html" target="_blank

Brian C wrote:If you want to fix the finances, orchestras might consider going the movie tavern/restaurant route. If I had the money, I'd buy a large warehouse in a redeveloping entertainment district that overlooks a river and re-open it as a restaurant with live theater, live musicians, murder mystery, etc.

The restaurant/service industry is about as dependable as the starting-a-new-orchestra industry. I don't know that I'd pair those two businesses together. And waterfront property! Woah! $$$$$! Successful restauranteurs are prepared for the usual two-year lifespan of a new restaurant when they set out. Overhead costs of a restaurant along with the overhead of an orchestra? If the would-be business owner has the funds, great! Good luck and I hope it works out! Otherwise, nobody behind a desk at the bank is gonna jump on that wagon for you... Sorry. Restaurants, like orchestras operate very close to the red, if not in it.

The service industry only survives on repeat business. Also, if the target demographic is younger patrons right? Guess who does not have the funds (on a regular basis - the regular basis it needs to be to succeed as a business) to support such a venture... Young people. The meal + entertainment will not be a cheap ticket... not if the business is to cover labour, talent (union scale is not cheap - remember, pros get paid for rehearsals too), venue costs (including production staff), and the cost of filling the seats (marketing/advertising).

My apologies Brian, for landing so hard on your point. Truly. But I think you've underestimated the costs of that venture vs. the possibility of a profit or even breaking even. You'll still need to draw on fund raising and generous patronage with your plan. Ticket sales will not do it for you man.

Also... look into the cost of presenting a film to a paying audience. Youch.

I didn't get a ton out of that TED talk, but I suppose that kids and emotional robots need to be told that there's a deep personal connection that can be made with music. It doesn't have to be classical music either, it can be anything. The point is that people just need to stop and listen, and learn how to do both of those things!

To me, one of the most interesting things about classical music is the seemingly unending library of music out there. I listen a lot, and I know there's a lot that I just have never heard (or don't remember). Always something new, even when it's hundreds of years old.

I didn't say it would be easy or cheap or that it could work anywhere. DC, NYC, San Francisco, LA, etc would be out for obvious cost reasons. Now could it be scaled to work appropriately in Dallas or Houston and would those cities have enough young professionals interested in that kind of entertainment on a regular basis? I don't know. But since I would probably need close to a nine-figure net worth to be comfortable with looking into that idea on a serious basis, I think it will remain on the shelf for some time. But I think this obscures my larger point that turning concert halls from temples into taverns might be a worthwhile experiment. In that respect, discussing the murder mystery orchestra restaurant is a rhetorical device, hyperbole to emphasize that I want entertainment on my terms, which may differ drastically from what has come before.

Give me beer, pizza, and floor seats to watch the semi-operatic production of Conan the Barbarian.

Give me a pitcher of margaritas, ceviche, and a luxury box to listen to Copland.

Give me the complete experience, the same as I can find at a ballgame or at a movie restaurant, so that I can make a full date of it with my SO in the limited time I get each week.

I recall that the greying of the audience has been studied for some time by some of the orchestras in this country. Can't remember where the results have been published but ax I recall the average age of a classical music concert patron is about 50, but the good news is that this figure has been stable for decades. apparently the average American takes some maturity to appreciate classical music but we aren't losing the audience to old age as new 50 something's replace the patrons who become too old to attend concerts,