"German Silver" Pistons

[Lew]

I was reading through my J. W. Pepper catalogs from the late 19th century and noticed that they made a point of mentioned for some of the instruments that they had "German Silver" pistons. I no longer own my 1880s Pepper double bell euphonium, but the pistons in it appeared to be nickel plated brass, with very worn plating, so I could see the copper and brass below.

I was wondering, do companies use nickel (German) silver for pistons today? If they are going to be plated anyway would it matter if they were brass or nickel silver? Just curious.

[Rick Denney]

I was wondering, do companies use nickel (German) silver for pistons today? If they are going to be plated anyway would it matter if they were brass or nickel silver? Just curious.

I don't know of any that use nickel-silver, or even nickel-plated brass any more. Seems like everyone now uses either Monel or stainless steel.

Rick "who has never seen a solid nickel-silver piston valve" Denney

[MartyNeilan]

These aren't pistons, but..........
Last night I was at Lee Stofer's shop and he has a huge gorgeous redbrass Rudy that has nickel silver valve casings on all 5 rotary valves.

[Sam Gnagey]

"German Silver" is a term commonly used in the string instrument trade for nickel silver trim on cheaper grade instrument bows.

[ThomasDodd]

I don't know of any that use nickel-silver, or even nickel-plated brass any more. Seems like everyone now uses either Monel or stainless steel.

I saw this yeaterday, again google found it, but Jupiter seams to be using nickel silver pistons on some horns, sousaphones and tubas for sure.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Last I looked, King uses nickel plated, nickel-silver pistons on the 2341 and other tubas and euphoniums. I am pretty sure Conn is still using it on there background instruments as well. Getzen is still doing it on there trumpets. Nickel-silver, aka german-silver is a copper alloy of copper, zinc and nickel. It is not a cheap substitute but is actually a very durable material and lends itself nicely to the plating and honing processes when the time comes for pistons to be rebuilt. Stainless pistons? Have not been down that road yet myself but I do know it was not a popular material in the plating department where I worked long ago, unless used as a substitute anode in the gold plating tanks. Stainless is not as easy to plate unlike the copper alloys. The modern stainless pistons would probably need to be replaced with oversize pistons and re-fitted, I guess. If this is the case, valve jobs on all those modern day tubas and euphoniums are going to be REAL pricey in the future. Just an observation.



Daniel C. "thinking I may need to add to my limited stainless working skills for the future" Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

[Lee Stofer]

Brass instrument pistons of 100-110 years ago were generally made of brass or nickel-silver. The ones made with nickel-silver were more durable than brass pistons. Copper plating was more popular at the time, and if meticulously cared-for, copper-plated pistons worked OK. The advent of nickel-plating pistons made them even better and less susceptible to wear.
On most piston valved brass of today, if you can see brass ports in the pistons, then they are monel/stainless steel pistons. If the entire piston, including inside the ports, has a silver appearance, then most likely the pistons are nickel-silver/German silver/neusilber and have been nickel-plated. Some people are convinced that nickel-plated pistons run smoother than monel, but the jury is still out. As long as the nickel plating is good and holds up, the valves will be fine. The problem with nickel plated valves is if the plating does not hold up. In that case, the valves can be re-plated, and returned to like-new condition. Monel pistons have a different problem. When not kept clean, the bare brass ports are possibly the most susceptible part of the instrument to red-rot. I have seen a remarkable number of instruments within the last year with various stages of red-rot in the piston ports, including some that literally had pinholes in the ports. These valves are not likely to plate well, and have to be repaired or replaced.
To answer one post above, the Yamaha YBB-321 valves are monel, and work as well as any valves on the planet when set-up properly. Yamaha valves are fitted quite tightly and will not tolerate calcification and dirt accumulation as much as those from some other manufacturers.
If one judged them by the slams I've seen on this forum, one would think that the YBB-321 was one of the worst tubas on the planet. I am not a Yamaha dealer and do not own a Yamaha tuba, but I'll say that a YBB-321 in proper repair is a fine instrument. For what its worth, they generally have quite good compression, and the bow branches and bell closely resemble that of a large, older Besson BBb. Incidentally, the bell measurements also VERY closely resemble that of an Alexander 163 CC - I have measured them side-by-side in the shop.

[ThomasDodd]

Stainless pistons? Have not been down that road yet myself but I do know it was not a popular material in the plating department where I worked long ago, unless used as a substitute anode in the gold plating tanks. Stainless is not as easy to plate unlike the copper alloys. The modern stainless pistons would probably need to be replaced with oversize pistons and re-fitted, I guess. If this is the case, valve jobs on all those modern day tubas and euphoniums are going to be REAL pricey in the future. Just an observation.

Would stainless need plated though? I would think not. It not going to wear either, so rebuilding isn't much of an issue. Not sure what teh ports would be made of though. If they are stainless too, great.

I susopect the wear and repair would all be in the casing, unless somthing is added to reduce wear there. A sleeve or somethiing would probably be best. Not sure what the current construction is though. Starting with a sleeve would be best. But the casing could be reamed to accepct a sleeve later. Would friction be enough to hold it, or would it need to be soldered? And getting the ports in the sleve would be a pain, unless the manufacturer made them. That might not help much for some though.

[Rick Denney]

Would stainless need plated though? I would think not. It not going to wear either, so rebuilding isn't much of an issue. Not sure what teh ports would be made of though. If they are stainless too, great.

Stainless wears just like anything else, though it may wear more slowly. Stainless is one of the softer steel alloys, just like Monel is one of the harder non-ferrous alloys. I would suspect that they aren't far apart in terms of hardness.

Stainless and Monel both share the fault that they are hard to renew when they do wear. Frankly, I don't really understand why one would want pistons that are much harder than the casings--the pistons are much easier to repair by plating, and can then be fitted to freshly bored casings to be made like new.

Of course, prevention is much better than the cure. I wonder if piston valves of any quality construction wear if they are kept meticulously cleaned and oiled at every use.

Rick "who prefers prevention" Denney

[Chuck(G)]

Of course, prevention is much better than the cure. I wonder if piston valves of any quality construction wear if they are kept meticulously cleaned and oiled at every use.

I'm sure they do, Rick. After all, they're a sliding mechanism and bits of stuff from the player's mouth and stray bits of oxide and metal flaking off will contribute to wear, even if there is no dirt in the mechanism, which there almost certainly is.

Warming - idle musing follows:

Wasn't it Buescher who used sleeves on the inside of valve casings on some of their trumpets? When the valve wore, the tech couild just tap out the old sleeve and press-fit a new slightly oversize sleeve. The idea had some merit.

I wonder if anyone's investigated anything harder than nickel for coating pistons and casings? I've got an old student cornet with chormium-plated valves that look like new.

How about injection-molded ceramic pistons? Very light and hard, with a very low expansion coefficient.

I wonder if a simple recirculating system could be developed for the oil in pistons. Gravity and the motion of the piston eventually displaces oil toward the bottom of the casing. I remember a repair tech once telling me to store my horns with the top of the valves pointing down, so that oil would tend to pool at the top of the casing and would migrate toward the bottom during playing.

Idle musing end.

[ThomasDodd]

Stainless and Monel both share the fault that they are hard to renew when they do wear. Frankly, I don't really understand why one would want pistons that are much harder than the casings--the pistons are much easier to repair by plating, and can then be fitted to freshly bored casings to be made like new.

I think in either case, sleeves in the casing would be best. Much easier to replace the sleeve than to plate a piston, and rehone it. I'd rather the valve be very hard and not wear, and a sacrificial sleeve be used. Different sized sleves could be made as needed, but the casing should never wear, and the valve should wear very slowly.

I know the concept is used in engins a lot. A sacrificial material that wears, to preserve the more expensive components, like pistons, block, and heads, crank shaft, and such. Granted, enginse work in more wear probne environments(high speeds, temperature swings, and such) but the concept should work.

I'm considering having my valves turned down, and chromed. The ream the casing, and make a soft brass sleeve to take the wear. Trouble is machining cost, as I don't have the tools or access to them, to do it myself. A sleeve on the vale, might work too, Not sure wich is easier to work on.

If you don't have sleves though, sure, plate the piston with something that will wear, like silver. Wear on the casing is bad, as is wear on the brass portion of the valve.

[Dan Schultz]

I remember a repair tech once telling me to store my horns with the top of the valves pointing down, so that oil would tend to pool at the top of the casing and would migrate toward the bottom during playing.

Hmmm... All the 'gunk' ends up in the bottom of the piston casing. I don't think it would be a good idea to store the horn bottom side up. Part of the job of lubricants is to wash all the trash to the bottom of the piston.

Following the original post.... maybe Rick Denny, resident engineer, can shed more light on this subject but I always thought the most wear occurred on the harder surface... hence the use of nickel plating on pistons. The plating can be replaced. The inside of the piston casing cannot.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I think in either case, sleeves in the casing would be best. Much easier to replace the sleeve than to plate a piston, and rehone it.

It never fails to amuse me when discussion takes place on how repairs should be best be performed and how a straight forward repair can be turned into the most difficult and complex of processes. We Repair technicians have been successfully repairing and rebuilding valves (rotor and piston) for a long time.


Brass instrument valves should not be confused with automobile engine blocks. Sleeving a tuba valve cylinder sounds simple enough until you really start to think about it. There is a reason we don't rebuild tuba valves or any other brass instruments valves that way. Honing the cylinders true, plating the pistons oversize and hone them to the proper size and hand lap to final fit may sound complicated but trust me, it is much more simple then machining sleeves, drilling ports in the sleeves, aligning and pressing the sleeves in to the respective cylinders, cutting new guide-ways, internal hone of the cylinders, external hone of the pistons to fit the new sleeved cylinders, repairing the damaged screw threads to the cylinders caused during the installation of the sleeves and removing the dents and other accidents that may have taken place during this attempt to re-invent the wheel.

Simply put, the way we fix them presently is the most practical way there is for the money we are willing to spend. It works so well that it can make valves feel and work as good as any new valve and in many cases better.

The rant has now ended.

Daniel C. Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

www.oberloh.com [/quote]

[Chuck(G)]

Following the original post.... maybe Rick Denny, resident engineer, can shed more light on this subject but I always thought the most wear occurred on the harder surface... hence the use of nickel plating on pistons. The plating can be replaced. The inside of the piston casing cannot.

Dan, that doesn't make much sense at first blush. If I rub a brick on a stick of butter, the butter's the thing that's going to wear away, right? The evil thing is really dirt, which tends to be harder than either nickel or brass. Works just like sandpaper.

In any case, there's a good rationale besides ordinary wear that mandates plating a piston oversize. The brass casing is often etched by saliva that pools in a valve. Take a peek inside the first valve casing of an old horn and you'll see what what I mean.

As I understand it, the nickel plating on a piston is not very thick at all.

I wonder if nickel-silver casings would wear any better?

[Dan Schultz]

If I rub a brick on a stick of butter, the butter's the thing that's going to wear away, right?

That might be true with bricks and butter but as far as being abrasive goes, I think I recall that brass is much more destructive than nickel. Think of it in terms of sandblasting rubber and steel. The steel (nickel plated piston) takes a beating while the rubber (brass casing) is fairly untouched.

C'mon Rich Denny.... I need some help here! What are the dymanics involved between nickel and brass with a lubricant film in between?

[Rick Denney]

C'mon Rich Denny.... I need some help here! What are the dymanics involved between nickel and brass with a lubricant film in between?

You want me to help you argue with Chuck? I think I'm a little too cautious to take on that dubious challenge. Even in politics, where Chuck is often completely wrong, he has a way to making himself sound right to the point I'm unwilling to challenge him.

If there is a lubricant film in between, and if velocities are slow enough to prevent shearing and cavitation (both true), then it doesn't matter what the materials are. The problem is when the film breaks down for some reason. It may be interrupted by dirt, which, if it's less hard than the brass, it becomes small enough in a hurry to get lost on its own. When it's harder, it becomes a problem.

The hard grains of dirt (or even valve-lapping compound, which is just highly refined dirt) scratch both the piston and the casing. But it scratches deeper in the softer material.

Chuck is, of course, right. Dirt is unavoidable and so is wear. But I still bet that those who flush off the dirt with fresh oil on every use, and clean their mouths before playing, don't seem to be the ones who have to have their valves replated. Okay, maybe they will after 30 or 40 years.

Rick "who thinks rotors wear more" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

C'mon Rich Denny.... I need some help here! What are the dymanics involved between nickel and brass with a lubricant film in between?

You want me to help you argue with Chuck? ........... Chuck is, of course, right. Dirt is unavoidable and so is wear.

Well.... it made for a good discussion, anyway!

So.... lubrication is the key.... regardless of the materials used for pistons and casings. Plenty of oil washes out the dirt and also provides a 'wear barrier'.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

The evil thing is really dirt, which tends to be harder than either nickel or brass. Works just like sandpaper.

I guess some folks may like to play there tuba in the sand box. What ever floats your boat. I did play a few beach gigs in my professional playing days but I tried to avoid getting sand in my horn. Bearing races are made of steel shafts and brass rings and they can last a long time provided they are properly maintained. Piston valves are not much different.

In any case, there's a good rationale besides ordinary wear that mandates plating a piston oversize. The brass casing is often etched by saliva that pools in a valve. Take a peek inside the first valve casing of an old horn and you'll see what what I mean.

Yeah, been there done that every day since the early 80s. I am just about to send off a Boston Musical Instrument Co. cornet for its first valve job after 90 years, Its valves were a mess. It had several ports that had come loose from the inside of the piston and the threads were worn to the point that the caps could not be screwed on. It looks great now and once it is re-silver plated and the valves are restored, I expect it to go for another 50-90 years. If you get 25-60 years or more out of a good piston valve between rebuilding and you remove .002"-.010" from the cylinder wall every time it is rebuilt, What does it matter? The life of the horn is 150-180 years tops with maybe four valve rebuilds in its life time. The body will have given up the ghost and started to stress crack by then. If you plan to play the same horn for the next 150 years , I would suggest that thugh they require more maintenance, rotor valves (solid brass not hallow) last longer because they can be rebuilt indefinitely. So if you want a valve that lasts, buy a rotary model.


Daniel C. Oberloh


Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
Saving the world, one horn at a time...

[ThomasDodd]

I think in either case, sleeves in the casing would be best. Much easier to replace the sleeve than to plate a piston, and rehone it.

It never fails to amuse me when discussion takes place on how repairs should be best be performed and how a straight forward repair can be turned into the most difficult and complex of processes. We Repair technicians have been successfully repairing and rebuilding valves (rotor and piston) for a long time.

I'm sure you guys do the best with what you have. And what people will spend.
Lack of strandrdization and poor parts availibility is and issue too.

My idea was a fairly thin sleeve, that wears, so that the piston, with a very hard plating, has nearly no wear. like 0.001" for ever 0.010" on the sleeve. This sleeve is a stock part. The ports are already drilled. It's not a comple cylinder, but split to form the keyway. It's larger than the casing, and compresses(like compression rings on a piston) when presses in. You line up the way and the edges with a long bar in the way while pressing the casing. The sleeve is shorter than the casing, and sits flush at the top, and has a 0.050-0.100" space at the bottom to make removal less error prone. Then a quick hone on the inner surface of the sleeve for the desired fit.

I'm just not sure if it need to be more securly fixed in the casing, or if the press fit would be enough to hold it still. Solder would make it difficult to remove. Maybe some sort of pin?

No machinging of parts. The whole job takes about 30 minutes per valve. Gets done every few (3-4) years, and cost about $50 per valve. Cheaper than the current methods (just replating the valves is like $40 each, without the honing and casing clean up), but done more often, so it brings the repair guys more work.

Only problem is parts supply. I don't know what the manufacturers are like in this area, or the likelyhood of a 3rd party source. When parts are not available, it can be convert to the old replating methods. This would be something for the big manufacturers and long lived valve body designs.

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Interesting idea but no sell. I know a little about this kind of stuff and I can already see that this way of going about it is loaded with pitfalls and structural problems regarding the sleeve.

My idea was a fairly thin sleeve, that wears, so that the piston, with a very hard plating, has nearly no wear. like 0.001" for every 0.010" on the sleeve.

The piston tolerance in my rebuilt valve is .00025" +/- once they are fitted. Have you ever machined or drawn something that thin? .001" is half the thickness of a human hair. Simple idea to have someone else supply it as long as the "someone else" is not you. Think about it, fabrication of a ton of sizes and configurations of sleeves that will distort when pressed into a cylinder. The tooling costs and stocking something that is not needed makes it a not so attractive business proposition. If the ports are pre drilled the ultra-thin, slit tube with half a dozen holes punched in it will distort.

This sleeve is a stock part. The ports are already drilled. It's not a complet cylinder, but split to form the keyway. It's larger than the casing, and compresses(like compression rings on a piston) when presses in. You line up the way and the edges with a long bar in the way while pressing the casing

Stock part?!!! Your process has more work to it then you know. Picturing a very thin cylinder made of ? with a pre-cut slit for the key guide, that by the way will compress when inserted eliminating the integrity of the cylinder and distorts its bore once in place. Also, once inserted, guide way is compressed and that allows for give and will keep it from obtaining a snug fit . The ports will have to be an exact fit for one of how many different horns? Once you have your sleeve, what will you do? Make room for it in the casing by removing how much metal? How you going to do that? Once you got it in, you are going to hone it? reaming and honing are machining processes. Honing machines are expensive, I know as I have written the check. Few shops have this kind of equipment and know how to use it. I can go on and on and on but I have a rehearsal to attend so I will leave it there.


Daniel C. "who feels we have figured the best way to rebuild and maintain valves without re-inventing the wheel" Oberloh