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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that ANOTHER piston valve sticking out of the side of the horn below the main valve block? If so, we could have a new wrinkle to an old Conn.

Chuck

Neither straight belled piston baritones, piston trumpets, nor that design of trombones were typical of pre-1933 German bands. In Germany. Where the economy hardly allowed for imports of instruments.

This could be a band of veterans of the German navy formed among immigrants in one of the areas of the US, where Germans preferred to settle.

Klaus

the elephant wrote:Klaus, those trombones are not "German" trombones, either.

Get the trunk out of your eyes! Bad reading is my privilege!

Could be so.

If using the term Kaiserliche the band would refer to a no longer existing state and would avoid any suspicion of being a military unit of a foreign nation.

Klaus

The words on the hats say "Bund Deutscher Marine-Vereine" (kind of association of german navy clubs). That assiciation had that name between 1922 and 1933 when the nazis took over and changed the name. This dates the picture to the 1920ties and to Germany.
I can't say anything about the instruments, sorry!

Butch

Just by judging the piston valve trumpets and the 5 valve Conn Bell Front Tuba, I'm guessing this was a band possibly in Cincinnati. They have/had a huge German Population with a large number of German Social Clubs. I have to wonder if the uniforms were a throw-in to a standing band to give it some distinction. I am very interested in the seemingly 5th valve on the Bell Front tuba. Anyone have a clue who may have built a horn with a 5th piston valve after the valve block? I assume the large BBb Rotary is a B&F. Any thoughts?

Chuck

I cannot tell how these uniforms made their way to a German veterans’ band in the US. But I know of a potentially similar sample in my own country after WWII.

In Denmark many clubs and organizations won strength and identity during WWII where the national identity also was boosted to keep the spirit necessary to survive the German occupation. But all uniforms had been banned since before the war because a few political parties let themselves inspire a bit too much by German nazi organizations.

After the war there was no need for the uniform ban, which lead to an partially unfilled demand for uniforms in a quite poor society, which however had no shortage on food.

German was extremely poor after WWII and food supplies were low. As was the industrial production. However there were a surplus of uniforms from the by then prohibited nazi organizations. So German uniforms were swapped for Danish pork.

The dark brown SA uniforms, with different distinctions, went to the voluntary rescue organization associated with the workers’ unions. So large gatherings like scouts’ field competitions or parades, park concerts, and the like always had one or more posts where the rescuers sat in their tents clad in old German uniforms which lasted past 1960.

Germany didn’t loose WWI to enemy armies, but to the collapse of its own economy. Also back then in that post-war Germany was very poor, so swapping navy surplus uniforms for US$ would have been a very likely situation.

Klaus

the elephant wrote: You must have a better resolution copy than the one posted here. I worked forever to try and read those hats and failed pretty badly, as you can see. HAHAHA!!!

Well actually I followed the link in the initial post, read the story there and did a wee further "research"! There's nö magic.

imperialbari wrote:Also back then in that post-war Germany was very poor, so swapping navy surplus uniforms for US$ would have been a very likely situation.

The name of the association mentionned on the hats was adopted in 1922. So I think it's quite unlikely that these uniforms have been swapped for anything. If so it had to be after 1933 when the nazis changed this associations name.

Won't it be interessting to think about how these american horns came to
Germany, if this is really a german band?

Can the instruments tell us anything about the year (or period) the pic was taken?

Butch

As I read the original story, it had no definite conclusion about the text on the hats.

Surplus uniforms from the WWI German navy, which was shrunk, if not disbanded, easily could have found their way to the US in the 1920-ies. No need at all for nazi involvement in that deal.

Germany was so poor that the old high pitch instruments could NOT (ed.) be scrapped after the pitch reform of 1920 (or so). New instruments could not be afforded. However a new production of pigtail leadpipe extenders came up. Also all sorts of funny shapes of tuning slides were made to keep the old instruments going.

A German band being able to afford American instruments in the 1920-ies is not likely.

Klaus

According to this web site:

http://www.omsa.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=834" target="_blank" target="_blank

there was a chapter of the Deutscher Marine Verein founded in Hoboken in 1894. I was amazed looking at the site at how many German veterans groups there have been in the U.S.

Strange -- nobody mentioned that the high brass are trumpets instead of cornets, flugels, or rotary valve instruments, so another indication that this picture may be an American band.

Randy Harrison had a King in CC with 5 pistons, 4 normal and the 5th below the valve block sticking out to the side just like the picture. The tuba pictured does look very King-like and they did make some weird stuff.

We have all been spending so much time looking at the horns I think we might have missed an important clue. I noticed there is a Masonic symbol at the upper right. At the upper left is the number 1001. From poking around a bit it looks like there are two Masonic lodges in the U.S. that are #1001 (they are affiliated, I think, with different Grand Lodges). There is Wayfarer's Lodge #1001 in Evanston, Illinois and Phoenix Lodge #1001 in Washington, D.C. I was not able to find information on lodge numbers in Germany. I do know that the Masons were persecuted under the Nazi regime.

Perhaps someone on the board with some Masonic background could chime in. This is all conjecture on my part. If I have used any terminology incorrectly it was done through ignorance rather than malice.

MikeS wrote:At the upper left is the number 1001.

It reads IOOF, which means «Independent Order of Odd Fellows». The IOOF is an altruistic and benevolent fraternal organization with lodges all over America and Europe.
It seems that that band played in a hall used by the IOOF and the freemasons, wherever this hall is located.

Butch

MikeS wrote:...there was a chapter of the Deutscher Marine Verein founded in Hoboken in 1894.

Counting one and one together I had an idea. Maybe there where also lodges of IOOF and the freemasons in Hoboken. I did a little research on the internet and I found the homepage of the Hoboken Historical Museum where they have a lot of sources online. So, what did I find out?

1. There was a «Deutscher Marine Verein von Nord America» (German navy association of North America), founded 1894 in Hoboken, as MikeS wrote. Members where former sailors from the german merchant navy as well as from the german navy.
2. There was (and is) a freemasons lodge in Hoboken. The «Euclid Lodge No. 136» of the «Free & Accepted Masons», founded in 1874.
3. There where (and still are?) two IOOF lodges in Hoboken. The «Fraternity Lodge No. 112» and the «Columbia Lodge No. 63».

And now it gets interesting!

4. Both, the «Euclid Lodge» and the «Columbia Lodge», had their hall at 227 Washington Street. Which means that the chance is huge, that this picture was taken at that hall at 227 Washington Street. Which means that the band in the picture is a german band in the US. (I apologize to Klaus to hold on the idea, that the picture has to be taken in Germany!) Which explains the american made instruments.

Butch

P.S. I'm a historian and I like to work on tasks like this one. And yes, I'm on holidays.

butch wrote:
4. Both, the «Euclid Lodge» and the «Columbia Lodge», had their hall at 227 Washington Street. Which means that the chance is huge, that this picture was taken at that hall at 227 Washington Street.

Looks like the sort of building that could have been used for that. The street level is a shoe store now:

http://goo.gl/maps/aIysz

talleyrand wrote:

butch wrote:
4. Both, the «Euclid Lodge» and the «Columbia Lodge», had their hall at 227 Washington Street. Which means that the chance is huge, that this picture was taken at that hall at 227 Washington Street.

Looks like the sort of building that could have been used for that. The street level is a shoe store now:

http://goo.gl/maps/aIysz

Meetings in old buildings like these were traditionally held on the the 2nd floor of old buildings like these, which traditionally had at least one larger room for such, and to rent out for wedding receptions, social events, corporate meetings & banquets, etc., and would have made a decent auditorium for a band concert for a smaller band as pictured.

I have played in many a place like that all over Northern California - Masons, Elks, Odd Fellows, etc! Sometimes our band plays in a social room, but other times we get to play in the actual Inner Sanctorum (or whatever they call it.)

The strangest one was the Columbia, CA Odd Fellows Hall (now part of a state park.) We got to see a secret under-the-floor crypt chamber and the hats and uniforms that were used in the 1850s.

The acoustics weren't bad, either.

What a wonderful bid of detective work and sensible analysis in this thread - TubeNet at its best!