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I want a cheap, 3/4 small-bore F tuba.
I'm considering buying a baby contra, cutting out all of the miles of 'guts' and shortening it all the way down from GG to F. then adding a front-action valve set (from an Eb tuba or a Bb baritone) then using adding tubing on the original bugle piston to make a forth valve, then taking the original rotor, and add tubing to make a fifth valve.

Before I start considering this, I need to do some research:
Is there enough straight-bore tubing in the contra to allow for cutting such a great amount without totally ruining the taper of the horn?
What is the bore of these blatt-o-phones (I know it's super small, but I don't know the specific bore)?
Would it be easier to lengthen a Bb baritone's valves slides or cut an Eb tuba's valve slides for this project (because I can't think of any Eb's off the top of my head that have such a small bore)?
Would it even be possible to 'recycle' the original piston and/or rotor for use as a 4th and/or 5th valve on the F tuba?

Thanks

SousaWarrior9 wrote:I want a cheap, 3/4 small-bore F tuba.
I'm considering buying a baby contra, cutting out all of the miles of 'guts' and shortening it all the way down from GG to F. then adding a front-action valve set (from an Eb tuba or a Bb baritone) then using adding tubing on the original bugle piston to make a forth valve, then taking the original rotor, and add tubing to make a fifth valve.

Before I start considering this, I need to do some research:
Is there enough straight-bore tubing in the contra to allow for cutting such a great amount without totally ruining the taper of the horn?
What is the bore of these blatt-o-phones (I know it's super small, but I don't know the specific bore)?
Would it be easier to lengthen a Bb baritone's valves slides or cut an Eb tuba's valve slides for this project (because I can't think of any Eb's off the top of my head that have such a small bore)?
Would it even be possible to 'recycle' the original piston and/or rotor for use as a 4th and/or 5th valve on the F tuba?

Thanks

To question #1 yes definetly especially a getzet 2 or 3 valve. Not the 4
Q#2 around .689 but some do vary. especially when getzen handed over production to Willson
Q#3 i would cut an Eb from an old king Eb if possible. 1920 or so
Q#4 anything is possible with the right tools and person, there are some guys on here that could probably make it from scratch for you. And some would probably disagree with what I said entirely.

Oberloh in Seattle is a great start as is CIOMIT in colorado or lee Stofer in the midwest. Matt Walters at Dillon in Jersey and probaby two dozen more I am not aware of yet. But the better question I have is....Why this tuba?

Thanks, elephant, for all the info.
By saying the pitch would be 'wonky' do you mean just some out-of-tune notes, an overall pitch problem, or just a blatty tone?
And when you say, 'a hell of a lot of work', do you think it would be cheaper to just get a 3/4 Eb, cut it to F and add a fourth valve?
(also, to answer tank, I chose the contra because it's small and it's cheap)

A few years ago, when I was marching in a senior corps, we had a couple of the old smaller DEG 2 valve GG contras as back up horns. I was very surprised how well they played when I got use them for a few rehearsals. They were very nice players and their intonation was very good, so if anyone wants to experiment cutting one those down it just might make a decent tuba.

All the King K-90's I played, about 6 different ones, had a nice sound but were really squirrely on pitch. The other players and I always thought it was because of the straight extension they inserted where it sets on your shoulder. We thought it may have disrupted the tapper in the main bugle of the horn.

But that little DEG 2 valve played so nice I almost took it back to DCA Championships one year so I could enter the solo & ensemble contest with it. But we wound up flying back and they couldn't take any extra horns... oh well.

Fwiw, a .562 Eb has a GOOD low Bb and A.

SousaWarrior9 - If you do decide to try making an F Tuba out of a Getzen Baby GG Contra or some other horn, I wish you well. I like reading about such projects on here, since I have a project of my own in mind (to be discussed below). It's my understanding too, as stated above, that the valves and smaller tubing of the Getzen Baby Contra were really small for a horn of its depth (GG) - around .562". I wouldn't plan on using either of the horn's valves in an F conversion project. You'll surely want something bigger bored.

Bandmaster and Elephant brought up the smaller DEG 2 valve GG Contras. I assume they're referring to the two piston version. If anyone is interested in one of these, the one I mentioned for sale in my post "Two piston G Bugles (Dynasty and Olds)" (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=52600" target="_blank" target="_blank) in the For Sale forum this past fall may still be available. PM if you'd like contact info for the owner. I agree with Elephant - one of those Contras could make a nice CC Tuba.

Elephant - Thanks a bunch for all the info and pictures you've contributed to this thread (well, everybody else too). Your valveset in the picture looks great, and serves as further inspiration for me to get going on the Cimbasso project I have in mind. I have a DEG Dynasty "I" G Euphonium Bugle I'd like to use for the body of an F or Eb Cimbasso, with probably the four valveset from a .656" bore Tuba (like the Olds O-99 you mentioned - just not the valves from my Conn 2J CC Tuba). Better yet, I'd like to have a .689" fourth valve and main tuning slide that a larger rotor like yours would fit for a fifth valve. Surely that would help open the lower registers of the horn, as long as I could still fit the body of the Euphonium Bugle onto the valveset. Any suggestions for this project would be appreciated as well.

Again, good luck with your project, SousaWarrior9.

Thanks for the well wishes. the elephant has convinced me, though, that (thanks to all of the really helpful info) using a baby contra would be impractical if I actually wanted a good horn. I assumed (incorrectly) that the many wraps in the bugle in the contra was all straight-bore tubing, so cutting all that out wouldn't hurt anything but I have never seen one on the horns in person, nor have I ever worked on a horn before.
What I'm looking for though is a small-size 5 valve F. (kinda like wade's yamaha or bill bell's king with a fifth rotor added) Since the cheapest 5v F I could find was around 4k, I thought a frankenhorn would be a more economical (and fun) option. But, if the costs of parts/assembly exceed much over a thousand dollars, I thing I'd be better off jut saving up for sometime in the future when an F actually becomes a necessity.
Also, as much as I'd like to, I won't be able to build it myself. I have no experience working with instruments nor do I have the necessary tools. I fear I'd butcher it id I attempted anything, so I'll need an experienced tech to do it, which will cost me in addition to parts. If I'm able to get the wheels tuning on this, I hope that whoever does assemble this walks me through the process as it happens, so that I can gradually work my way in to being able to attempt such things on my own.
Right now, I have about $120 at my disposal. It's not much (as far as tubas go) but I figured it could be enough to net me a contra or an Eb valveset. As it looks right now, I'll need to save more before I try anything as it looks like costs of the parts I need, plus labor, are going to cost a heck of a lot more than what I've got.
Although, isn't a G baritone bugle just a whole step higher than an F tuba? Could it be possible to make a micro F from this with a cut Eb valve section and a little extra tubing?

FYI, all GG contras were made from existing tuba components. There were never any special mandrels made up.

Whaley Royce in Toronto made the first one in 1958. Just one. It was front-carried and proved too cumbersome to be marched with.

I don't know of the pedigree of the baby Getzen bell, bow, and 2 branches, but I've always surmised they came from some single Bb tuba. Don Getzen was still with his dad's business in 1962, and obviously put the contras together out of whatever parts were available that particular day. He used to source a bunch of his components from someplace in Italy.

In the mid-60s, 4/4 contras were available from Whaley Royce (assembled on the 4th floor of their music store from Euro-sourced components) and Smith Music in Chicago (made at Emo in Neustadt-on-Aisch, GDR).

In 1969 Zig Kanstul brought out the Olds Ultratone contra, made from their model O-99 tuba components in Fullerton.

When the Getzen Co. was sold off, Don started DEG (Dynasty). His G contras and euphoniums were all made by Willson. The 4/4 contra was originally a 1 piston/1 rotor horn. Then the 2-piston "Magnum" model followed in 1979, and a 3-piston version a decade later. All were made from the same major components of BBb Willson tubas. There were also 2, 3 and 4 piston 5/4 "Super Magnum" models.

Zig Kanstul started his own company in the 80s and still makes 4/4 and 5/4 GG contras (3 or 4 pistons) from his BBb tuba components.

So if anyone has plans to make tubas out of contra parts, you are not using anything unique. All the GG contras are simply existing BBb tubas permanently crooked in G.

SousaWarrior9 wrote: Although, isn't a G baritone bugle just a whole step higher than an F tuba? Could it be possible to make a micro F from this with a cut Eb valve section and a little extra tubing?

ALL G baritone and euphonium bugles have been made from components of their existing Bb counterparts. They are simply band instruments permanently crooked in G.

On a side note the big G willson 4 cracker is a blast to play.

aqualung wrote: ALL G baritone and euphonium bugles have been made from components of their existing Bb counterparts. They are simply band instruments permanently crooked in G.

I'm aware that they are made of other horns BUT because they are already in G (lower than Bb) wouldn't it be easier to convert a baritone bugle from G to an F tuba, rather than using a Bb baritone from witch the G bugles are made made because they're already pitched pitched in G rather than Bb? Regardless of what parts they're made from, a (low) G baritone is closer to an F tuba than Bb baritone is to an F tuba, right? Which Is why I had the idea to use a G baritone, because trying to use a Bb baritone would require a tom of extra tubing while a bugle would require a much smaller amount. I could, though, be completely wrong and even using a G bugle would not be practical, which is why I submitted my question to the board.

I have a Kanstul G baritone, which looks like a derivate of a Bb model. The G baritone uses the extra length of tubing to employ the good idea of the tune-any-note system, which is a second, smaller, main tuning slide, which can be operated by the left thumb.

Maybe there is a smaller need for added tubing with the G than with the Bb model, if you want an augmentation to F tubing, but designwise it still is a Bb instrument you convert by adding cylindrical tubing. Only the factory did some of the adding in the first place.

Klaus

SousaWarrior9 - To answer your question directly, yes, a G Baritone or Euphonium Bugle is just a whole step higher than an F Tuba. I can't remember for certain, but I believe one or more people have lowered these horns from G to F, and they at least worked okay. So yeah, using one of them to build a micro F Tuba just might work, and would require less added tubing than starting with a Bb Baritone. That's also why I'm considering trying to build a Cimbasso with my Euphonium Bugle, keying it in F or Eb. I played a Euphonium Bugle just like this one in a Drum Corps (1983 Geneseo Knights), and really enjoyed it. Now, I'd just like to have one that is fully chormatic with enough valves to reach clear into the contra register. So, why not try to turn one into a Cimbasso? Aqualung and Klaus are both right though - G Bugles are really just Bb band instruments permanently crooked in G.

If you try building a micro F Tuba with a G Bugle, I'd suggest trying a Euphonium Bugle. The flare of the barrel and bell would probably result in a more pleasant Tuba tone (just my opinion).

Aqualung - Thanks for the history notes on Contras too.

Didn't Tony Clements have a thread about his small front action G whatsit?