Euro or american shank?

[octavelower]

Hello all!

I am wondering how to definitively tell if my tubas have a euro shank or an american one. Where exactly do I measure?
Or, maybe someone knows already.
I have these tubas
Miraphone 1291 purchased new in 2004
3/4 Rudy - about 12 years old
Yamaha 822 F - about 10 years old
Yamaha 621 F - not sure of age, purchased used

This is a topic I have never really thought about, I usually just stick any old mouthpiece into the tuba. But, I noticed some intonation changes depending on mouthpiece so I wanted to get to the bottom of that. I am sure that mouthpiece fit has something to do with that.

Thanks for your time!!

[Roger Lewis]

Actually, if it is an original 1291 with the factory leadpipe, that would take an American shank mouthpiece. I think all of your instruments were set up for the standard American shank.

The "proper measurement" for determining the shank size is:
When measured at the very tip of the mouthpiece stem an American shank should be around .520"
A European shank mouthpiece should be about .538"

But there really is no "standard" on mouthpiece stems as the PT mouthpieces usually come in at about .530".

Ideally, according to some famous people out there, there should be a gap of about 3/16" between where the mouthpiece ends and the leadpipe begins inside the receiver. You may need to use a dental tool to find where the leadpipe connects to the receiver.

The Rudy could be the hardest one to fit as I recall their receivers on the 3/4 being somewhat inconsistent depending on when it was made.

Good luck. I'd say just play what works for you and plays as in tune as possible.

Roger

[octavelower]

Thank you very much for your time and information... I know the rudy was purchased from wwbw around 2000, if that helps. I am very interested to see if setting up a mouthpiece with the correct "gap" will offer any noticeable changes, it will be interesting to test.

[TubadudeCA]

Very soon, someone pretty close to me will be offering mouthpieces for which different sized shank exteriors can be affordably purchased (without replacing the entire cups).

So Bloke, how are the new Parker mouthpieces?? Have you had the chance to try one yet?

[MikeW]

Purely out of curiosity:

Assuming a tuba with no mouthpiece, what would be the simplest measurement to determine the correct shank size ?

I have seen plenty of discussion of how to measure a mouthpiece to determine its size, and of tricks for working out the gap, but nothing about measuring the instrument itself to figure out what shank size it was built for.

[UDELBR]

Purely out of curiosity:

Assuming a tuba with no mouthpiece, what would be the simplest measurement to determine the correct shank size ?

I have seen plenty of discussion of how to measure a mouthpiece to determine its size, and of tricks for working out the gap, but nothing about measuring the instrument itself to figure out what shank size it was built for.

This might be what you're looking for: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10390&p=81071&hilit=+shank#p81071" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

Well... you could have a machinist turn you a plug gauge that's .518" (+ or - .0005") diameter on one end and .528" (+ or - .0005") diameter on the other end. If you can pass the small end into the receiver and not the large end... you probably have an American shank receiver. If the large end 'goes'... it's at least a European shank.

Manufacturers are telling us that it doesn't make a difference and both the American shank and the European shank with work in either receiver.

I subscribe to the Matt Walters theory that it DOES matter.

What's going on here is a cheesy way out of having to control the manufacturing tolerances in both mouthpiece shanks and receivers. And.... total refusal of the industry to adapt a REAL standard. Sure wouldn't fly in the good old days of ISO standards! Functional gauging??? What the heck is that???

[MikeW]

Purely out of curiosity:
Assuming a tuba with no mouthpiece, what would be the simplest measurement to determine the correct shank size ?...

Everyone seems to be answering your question backwards. You keep asking what size your receiver is, and people keep talking about mouthpieces (rather than receivers)...

Nicely put, thank you.

Buy these crappy calipers: http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-dig ... 47257.html and measure the exit bore (right at the very opening - with your caliper legs barely making a purchase in there) of your tuba's receiver. If it's about .575" (aka around 14-1/2mm ...or - if you're trying to eyeball it with a ruler - a shade larger than 9/16"), if you want your mouthpiece to stick into your tuba about an inch, maybe you want an "american" shank mouthpiece.....

The thing is, none of these stuff is completely standardized from one maker to the next, with every maker claiming their dimensions are "the" standard.

Many thanks, that's a good start towards what I had in mind. As a very rough guide, and ignoring the somewhat controversial issue of "Gap", measure the receiver opening:

0.575 in (14.5 mm) is probably "American Standard"
Smaller is probably "Small Euro" (smaller still may be a "Medium Euph")
Bigger is probably "Euro" (MUCH bigger may be a Kaiser or other custom size)

But be aware that there are some intermediate sizes, and that this measurement also depends on the depth to which the manufacturer intended the mouthpiece to fit into the receiver.

EDIT (corrected set of numbers): I got the following tip-sizes from various posts on Tubenet, then added 0.056in to get the size at the receiver opening (the magic number comes from the Bach mouthpiece manual, which says a tuba mp with standard Morse taper is 0.519 at the tip, and 0.575 at the receiver opening).
Assuming your receiver has a Morse taper, and is designed to allow the mouthpiece to be inserted about 1.125in, then the following table gives the receiver opening for each of the commoner shank sizes:

______________Tip size_____________Size at receiver opening
Euro__________0.540in / 13.72mm___0.596in / 15.14mm
old Miraphone__0.530in / 13.46mm___0.586in / 14.88mm
Am Standard___0.519in / 13.21mm___0.575in / 14.61mm (From Bach mp manual)
Sm Euro_______0.490in / 12.45mm___0.546in / 13.87mm
Md Euph_______0.470in / 11.94mm___0.526in / 13.36mm