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Who is making Sanders tubas and euphs now?
Are they Chinese reproductions, or a division of Cerveny?

Just curious,
Frank

Pretty sure the new Sanders tubas are Chinese. The old ones were Amati/Cerveny.

Anyone know when this switch over took place?

Frank Ortega wrote:Anyone know when this switch over took place?

Probably in the late 60's or early 70's with the introduction of the Sanders 'Imperial'... which I'm pretty sure was an Asian clone. (Yes... THAT early importers were fooling around with things like this!)

TubaTinker wrote:

Frank Ortega wrote:Anyone know when this switch over took place?

Probably in the late 60's or early 70's with the introduction of the Sanders 'Imperial'... which I'm pretty sure was an Asian clone. (Yes... THAT early importers were fooling around with things like this!)

Thinking of the Custom ads in the TUBA Journal from the middle 80's, there was no mention of "Sanders Imperial" that I recall. The Sanders label was applied to two series, including the "Sanders", which were rebadged Amati/Cerveny models, and "B&S Sanders", which was applied to B&S instruments. In both cases, they were budget tubas imported from Communist countries, which was something that Custom seemed to do more consistently than most.

I don't recall hearing of "Sanders Imperial" in reference to Asian instruments until at least the 90's.

Rick "whose memory may be flawed, but not thinking so in this case" Denney

Not the greatest images. But... this is a Sanders 'Imperial' probably from the 70's or early 80's. If it's any later, it certainly had a rough life. Obviously a copy of a VMI/B & S 101 but lacking the 'really nice' features like full-size backing plates on the harness loops, keel detail, and mouthpipe brace. The rotors had sort of a 'mill finish'. Also note the 'chincy' linkage as opposed to the 'S' links that were popular 'in the day'. I honestly don't think this horn originated in Europe.

The braces are 'European-ish' but about half the diameter of the real thing. I could be all wrong about this but Custom Music did not share a lot of information about the origin of the horns they sold... not necessarily being deceptive about it... just good business practice 'back in the day'.

I just picked up a Sanders BBb Étude for a student. I'm actually very impressed by this horn.
It may be a little older because the brass is of a heavier gauge than you see on many of the current Chinese replicas.
It's in tune, responds well, even in the low range, and has a great deal of punch. Someone looking for BBb to use in Chamber music would do very well with this instrument.

Oh, and the valve set does say made in China.

TubaTinker wrote:Not the greatest images. But... this is a Sanders 'Imperial' probably from the 70's or early 80's. If it's any later, it certainly had a rough life. Obviously a copy of a VMI/B & S 101 but lacking the 'really nice' features like full-size backing plates on the harness loops, keep detail, and mouthpipe brace. The rotors had sort of a 'mill finish'. Also note the 'chincy' linkage as opposed to the 'S' links that were popular 'in the day'. I honestly don't think this horn originated in Europe.

The braces are 'European-ish' but about half the diameter of the real thing. I could be all wrong about this but Custom Music did not share a lot of information about the origin of the horns they sold... not necessarily being deceptive about it... just good business practice 'back in the day'.

Interesting, Dan- that horn looks almost exactly like my Sonora, which was made in Markneukirchen in 1976. It is marked "Germany East" on the mouthpiece receiver. Mine does have the larger harness loop backplates and a (nickel-plate?) trim ring around the bell flare, but the leadpipe anchor, valve gear and backplate shape appear identical.

From what I've read, B&S used a few different stencil names depending on who ordered the horns. Here is a link to an earlier discussion of these tubas:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43102&hilit=cold+war+tubas" target="_blank

Heavy_Metal wrote:.......
Interesting, Dan- that horn looks almost exactly like my Sonora, which was made in Markneukirchen in 1976. It is marked "Germany East" on the mouthpiece receiver. Mine does have the larger harness loop backplates and a (nickel-plate?) trim ring around the bell flare, but the leadpipe anchor, valve gear and backplate shape appear identical.

From what I've read, B&S used a few different stencil names depending on who ordered the horns. Here is a link to an earlier discussion of these tubas:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=43102&hilit=cold+war+tubas" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Oh yes.... I've had several of the B & S 'stencils' that were obviously produced in Europe. With names like Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Gerhart Schneider (sp?), Walter Kroner, Karl Zeiss (yes... some were made by Cerveny as well as B & S), Otto Weimar, and a few others whose names I can't recall at the moment. All had similar characteristics but for some reason, the Sanders tuba that I saw marked 'Imperial' always stood out in my mind as being from 'somewhere else' and of lesser quality than the others.

I was wrong once before. This is just an opinion.

By-the-way... This one is a Sander (no 'S' on the end). It belonged to Fred Marzan. Anyone know who made it?

TubaTinker wrote: This one is a Sander (no 'S' on the end). It belonged to Fred Marzan. Anyone know who made it?

I'm guessing it was made by the Sander company prior to WWII. I have seen slant rotor Sander tubas though I must admit that the copper version was a surprise as well as a heart-stealer.

The other possibility, which I doubt, is that Fred had B&M make a copy for him. My vote is that this is a Sander original.

The Sanders tubas that Fred Marzan had made were high quality tubas. I played half a dozen and they were consistently fine horns. Neal Tidwell owned a 3/4 CC with 5 titanium rotary valves which was an amazing instrument. Those old Sanders would be a real find for anyone.

If this tuba is an Asian copy, then even a unique B&S detail like the shape of the thumb ring flange has been copied. With the disclaimer that I obviously never had this instrument in my hands, I would say it is out of the B&S factory.

Bulk importers could negotiate specs for stencil instruments. If this one appears of a lower level of finish, it simply may have been ordered at a price disallowing sufficient numbers of hours in the production.

Klaus

Sanders is sent instrument designs by the Custom Music company. For example, CMI sent the designs for the B&S Non compensating euphonium to Sanders, which is the design for the Sanders euphonium.

Frank Ortega wrote:I just picked up a Sanders BBb Étude for a student. I'm actually very impressed by this horn.
It may be a little older because the brass is of a heavier gauge than you see on many of the current Chinese replicas.
It's in tune, responds well, even in the low range, and has a great deal of punch. Someone looking for BBb to use in Chamber music would do very well with this instrument.

Here's another (B&S) Sanders Étude on eBay. Looks like the seller cut-and-pasted the wrong valve description:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tuba-with-case- ... 3381ba2f3e" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

The Tuba Fish wrote:Sanders is sent instrument designs by the Custom Music company. For example, CMI sent the designs for the B&S Non compensating euphonium to Sanders, which is the design for the Sanders euphonium.

Isn't it the other way around- CMI sends the design to B&S who produces it under the Sanders stencil?

TubaTinker wrote: By-the-way... This one is a Sander (no 'S' on the end). It belonged to Fred Marzan. Anyone know who made it?

Dan,

I think that copper horn was on EBay about 8-10 years ago and was bought by Kit Johnson of Portland, OR.

This is a pic of the horn (with the recording bell). http://www.jsojazzscene.org/FeaturedMus ... ohnson.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank

There was a flurry of Tubenet activity about this horn when it was up for sale. I think the final price was near Kit's annual income: $1,000,000.

imperialbari wrote:.... If this tuba is an Asian copy, then even a unique B&S detail like the shape of the thumb ring flange has been copied. With the disclaimer that I obviously never had this instrument in my hands, I would say it is out of the B&S factory. .....

You'll just have to trust me on this one, Klaus. I know this horn well and I can say that it DID NOT come from the normal European sources.

Question: Isn't it the other way around- CMI sends the design to B&S who produces it under the Sanders stencil?

My Answer: Sanders is a trade name of CMI, not B&S. B&S isn't affiliated directly with te factory that produces Sanders tubas in China, and the Sanders instruments aren't stencils. The Sanders manufacturer (may be a Jinbao factory or a factory dedicated to Sanders) produce instruments independently from B&S, for Custom Music. Though both B&S and Sanders are sold through Custom Music, they aren't affiliated in any way.

Apparently.........

LJV wrote:In the early 80's Custom was still using Cerveny and B&S on their Sanders marked tubas depending on model.

it depends on when it was made and where CMI was sourcing their Sanders-brand horns at that time.

Maybe whoever buys the one now on eBay will end up here and let us know where it was made.

By-the-way... This one is a Sander (no 'S' on the end). It belonged to Fred Marzan. Anyone know who made it?

I have no clue who built it, but I 'm inclined to bet it will show up on eBay sometime soon...again.

eupher61 wrote:... I have no clue who built it, but I 'm inclined to bet it will show up on eBay sometime soon...again.

That copper Sanders is owned by Kit Johnson of the Black Swan Jazz Band. He's vowed to never sell the horn.