My "New" Toy!

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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

Thank you very much for the kind words and encouragement Wade. I never really thought of this as being inspirational, but if it helps someone else "go for it" in regards to trying some repairs on their own, great!
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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WilliamVance
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by WilliamVance »

I'm glad that I'm not the only " crazy" person out there who is currently experimenting and learning more about tuba repair. I am currently fixing up an old Holton Collegiate Sousaphone I found on eBay for $400. I've spent about $100 in parts and $800 in tools to get it fixed up. I would really love to spend the money and get a dent machine... You just can't get the same results with rods and dent balls. My main goal is to take an unusable horn and make it a well playing one. Keep posting and maybe I'll post up about my Sousa.
Bill Vance
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

The picture isn't the greatest and the color is a little off with the flash, but you can see what I get to clean out of this thing! It's a lovely, powdery texture and just caked on the inside of all the tubing.

Image
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
Ken Herrick
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Ken Herrick »

Some CLR would do a good job of cleaning your parts. A couple bottles in a plastic container so you can immerse and soak things should do the trick.

I would love to have the dent machine and tools Chris Olka has for sale. No such luck, but I have made a reasonable facsimile using fairly cheap, readily available materials. I'll try to get some pics and see if I can find a way to post them soon.

For starters, a good vise and a length of "bread loaf" railing timber can nake a good mandrel for doing some dent work such as on the bell. Large dent "balls" can be fashioned from round newel post tops. Small dent balls can be turned down from dowelling.

They might not last forever but, will do the job.

No matter how good this tuba is, you will get a lot of satisfaction from having rebuilt it.

Have fun and good luck.
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MartyNeilan
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by MartyNeilan »

Tubajug wrote:
KiltieTuba wrote:
JB Weld wrote:When fully cured, J-B Weld can only be removed by grinding or filing it off, or by directly heating the product above the 600º maximum temperature threshold.
Looks like the Dremel I got for Christmas has another job to do!

Thanks for the Tarnex/baking soda idea. I'll have to give it a try!
Just torch off the JB weld. It becomes brittle and flakes right off after direct contact with a propane flame - nothing fancy needed.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

Ken Herrick wrote:I have made a reasonable facsimile using fairly cheap, readily available materials. I'll try to get some pics and see if I can find a way to post them soon.

For starters, a good vise and a length of "bread loaf" railing timber can nake a good mandrel for doing some dent work such as on the bell. Large dent "balls" can be fashioned from round newel post tops. Small dent balls can be turned down from dowelling.
I would love to see some pictures of your homemade tools! I would love to do as much of this on my own as I can. Thanks! If you can't get them posted here, you can always just email them to me.
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

MartyNeilan wrote:Just torch off the JB weld. It becomes brittle and flakes right off after direct contact with a propane flame - nothing fancy needed.
Turns out it was just really old solder. I left the torch on there a while and it gave it a swipe with a rag and started coming off!
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
Ken Herrick
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Ken Herrick »

Jordan,
Send me your email address and I'll get in touch. Might be able to work up a new topic with some pics.

Ken

kensdog@bigpond.com" target="_blank
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

Small update on my project horn: Over the weekend I cleaned the parts I had removed. I used just CLR and a toothbrush, snake, etc. The first picture makes them look really bright and shiny! That's mostly the flash and sunlight, but they are very clean now (inside and out!) and they don't feel dirty when handling them anymore!

Image

Closer shot of just the valve block:

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Backside of the valve block:

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No more mustard-yellow gunk caked on the inside, although there are deposits of some kind in there. Perhaps a vinegar soak will get those off.

Image

I had hoped the CLR might dissolve some of the gunk keeping the slides stuck, but they're all still frozen solid. I've now got some penetrating oil I'm going to apply and hope that loosens things up. I'd really like to do as much as I can on my own without having to pay my tech to do it.

Here's what I see my tech having to do/help me with on this horn:

-Resolder the knuckle to the third valve casing (of course checking slide alignment and everything that goes with it)
-Order and bend a new leadpipe (unless anyone here has one that might fit?)
-Possibly help with the bell wrinkle repair (I'm going to try the rolling pin on my own first and see what I get. I did some just by hand and it already sits straighter that it did before).
-Ordering and possibly installing a new water key

Thanks for looking and have a great rest of your Monday everyone!
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
Ken Herrick
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Ken Herrick »

What Wade says is probably the "preferred" option for the knuckle.
However, a "socket" can be made to receive the knuckle and soft soldered.
An advantage to that method is you get more than one chance at it and run far less risk of damaging the casing, possibly beyond repair.

I second Wade's vote of encouragement!
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

Another update! Last night I gave the rolling pin a try and was very pleased with the results. The rim of the bell is still wavy, but the dents and creases are much less pronounced now. I also got the bell removed (with the help of my lovely wife) in preparation for removing the bottom bow and tackling the flat side.

I used my hands the other day to pull some of the wrinkles out as best I could (I got this from watching Dan Oberloh's videos on youtube), then used a rolling pin to even out the high and low spots as best I could.

Here's what I started with when I first got the horn:

Image

Here's how it looked after the hand pulling:

Image

Image

And here it is after working with the rolling pin:

Image

Image

I'll have to have my tech help me with the final work, but I am very pleased with what I was able to do on my own.

And here it is with the bell off (you can really see the wavy rim in this shot):

Image

In answer to your post Wade, I was aware that the knuckle would have to be hard/silver soldered on. Thanks very much for the encouragement. The tech I use has been doing school band instrument repairs for about 30 years. He is now a partner in his own business (he used to work for a "big box" music store in town, but got out a couple years ago) and is very willing to work with me on stuff like this and lets me get my hands dirty along side him. He said he has never done as much customization to horns until he met me (he helped me flip the first valve slide on my King I used to have and he recently vented the first piston on my Bach after I showed him where to drill the hole). So he's very capable and he lets me help (and often gives me a better deal for it!), unlike the "big box" place in town that wouldn't even let me into the shop.


Thanks again for looking and happy Tuesday!
Last edited by Tubajug on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

I'll get some pictures up later, but last night I finished getting the bugle taken apart. My next step will be to clean the outside and inside of the bugle.

I used CLR to clean/soak the valve block and slides, which was very effective and got rid of all the brown and green gunk. I'm looking for any alternatives which might be more cost efficient to clean my bugle parts. I would rather not buy gallons of CLR just to have enough in which to soak the larger branches. Someone suggested powdered citric acid that I could then mix into my own solution.

Any other ideas of a CLR alternative for cleaning the bigger parts? Thanks!
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

Here's a picture of the bugle in parts:

Image

I bought just a small container of powdered citric acid from the grocery store to try as a cleaner for the large branches. Any other economical alternatives to CLR?
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
PMeuph
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by PMeuph »

If you re-use the CLR and go one branch at a time, you should be fine with about 2 quarts...

How effective was the vinegar the first time?

Since your horn is silver, you can use hot liquids to clean to clean it. Usually the hotter water is more effective at removing dirt. You might want to test trying to use heated vinegar. (Use in well ventilated areas.)
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by bigbob »

Rince vinegar throughly or it will produce a patina in your horn<s>. I use it to color my metal for sculptures.....BB
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

The vinegar worked well enough, although the parts I used it on weren't nearly as dirty as the outer branches. The outer branches also have a green deposit of some kind in addition to just the dirty mud-type stuff. The green stuff is mostly on the bell. It looks like something was either spilled or leaked on it and it accumulated as it stood on the bell.
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

I took advantage of the past two snow days to get some more work done on my little horn. I set about trying to fix the flat side of the horn. I was afraid this was going to be something my tech was going to have to help with, but I was able to get it fixed with just my magnet and balls. I'm realizing I'm not very good at taking "before" pictures and I tend to just start working. Here's what the horn looked like from the beginning on that side:

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Here's the bottom bow and the ferrule after:

Image

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Here was the top bow before (a lovely "D" shape):

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And here it is after:

Image

I also took the dents out of the bottom bow and fixed up the bow guard, but of course forgot to take pictures.

As far as cleaning goes, the smallest of the bugle branches should still fit in the pan I used to soak my other parts in CLR, maybe even the bottom bow. So the bell and the top bow should be the only things that might need some creative cleaning.

Thanks for looking!
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

I gave vinegar another go on the larger branches of the bugle last night and was satisfied with the results. It didn't melt the stuff off as fast as the CLR did, but it got the job done. The last thing to do will be to clean the bell. The green spots still don't want to come off, would a razor blade and precision scraping be an acceptable method?

Here's the stuff sitting in its "bath":

Image

Sorry for the poor lighting, but the parts are all clean!

Image

Thanks for the compliments Wade!

The next step will be (after cleaning the bell off) prepping the valve casing and knuckle to be soldered back together. Then order a new leadpipe and possibly receiver (I might as well right? That way I can try standard mouthpieces on it too).

I've got the slides all sitting with penetrating oil on them. So far they haven't budged, which frustrates me, but as soon as those are free I think I can start getting this thing put back together.
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
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Tubajug
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Tubajug »

I took advantage of the "warm" (38 degrees...) weather to snap a few pictures of the cleaned up bugle parts out in the sunshine:

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And the backside:

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Whatever that green stuff is, it does a good job of taking the plating off whenever I get it off...

Image

Image

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I was very pleased with how well I was able to get the wrinkles out. I thought for sure this would be something for my tech to do. After using a rolling pin, I used one of the anvils from the dent removal set (for vehicles) my father in law got me for Christmas and my dent hammer to tap the wrinkles almost completely out. I was very pleased with the result.

Image

Image
Jordan
King 2341 with a Holton "Monster" Eb bell
Eb Frankentuba in progress
Martin Medium Eb Helicon

Used to own, but still a fun thread: Lyon & Healy Eb

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving's probably not for you.
Ken Herrick
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Re: My "New" Toy!

Post by Ken Herrick »

darned phone - can't see any of your pics but it sounds like this is progressing well.
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