sound of the group or loud???

[Tom]

BTW--

Playing trumpet, trombone, etc. doesn't require more or less air...it requires different use of air.

AND--

Playing soft doesn't mean you should be using less air...think about that one for a while...

[Dan Schultz]

Im taking private lessons and my teacher keeps telling me to play louder

Hmmmm.... I can't imagine a tuba teacher telling a student to play louder. I would think control and dymanics would be the focus. We've had as many as six tubas in our community group and we've never had a problem with overpowering the other 30 or so.

If you can't play pp as well as FF... then you can't play.

[Captain Sousie]

My teacher did this to me and he had a good rationale. When I would play softly or at anything less than a mf I would start to lose the support that I needed because I hadn't yet realised what you need to do to play softly with air. He started having me play at nothing less than a mf while keeping the sound in control. This helped me to keep the support that I needed to achieve a good sound. Then, after I had a good foundation of support, he started working with me to play gradually softer and to use even more support while doing so. This worked wonders and soon I was able to play a ppp and sound as good as if I was playing mf-f. Not everyone can play softly with good sound right out of the box. It can take time.

So, please don't start to put down a teacher's motives or practices without knowing anything about the situation. The last thing we need on this board is another poster criticising a teacher's methods in front of their students unless they are truly and openly harmful.

Finally, to the original poster. Try to play at a dynamic where you are not losing support. If you are playing at pp and the tubas are overpowering the band and still using no support, finger along and stop blowing. You will stop messing up the private teacher's progress with you and will keep the director from telling you to be quieter.

Sometimes with a young group, the rest of the band will not have a well enough developed sound to combat the stronger tuba sound. I have seen this countless times and have had to deal with it myself on occasion. Start with my advice above and go from there.

Good luck and to everyone else, stop undemining private teachers' advice in front of their students.

Sousie

[WoodSheddin]

In my band we have way to many tubas for the size of the band, 5 tubas for about 55+ people. Im taking private lessons and my teacher keeps telling me to play louder and then when i go back to class the tubas are told to drop everything down to about pp so that we dont over power the band. This is starting to make me use about as much air as a trumpet player in every peice i play, should i just forget about it for the sound of the group or should i talk with my director?

I here ya brother. When I was in high school I remember this exact scenario. Most of the band played with thin unsupported sounds and when I played with, what I had at the time at least, a full supported sound I stuck out like explosives going off at a prayer vigil.

To be honest, I just had to live with it until I got to college. The real solution is to have a group which plays with full sounds from pp-ff. That is rare in a high school band.

As far as the private teacher telling you to play "louder" he is probably more interested in a full resonant supported sound throughout the dynamic ranges. Even a soft pp sound should project to the back of a hall. Resonance is defined in the dictionary as "Intensification and prolongation of sound, especially of a musical tone, produced by sympathetic vibration" You want to make the room alive with your sound through beauty not by force. Try to make the walls vibrate with your sound in the kindest way you can muster. Brute force is rarely an efficient way to accomplish these goals.

I have similiar issues of potential bad habits forming with the group I play with. At work I play Sousaphone and spend most of my playing time bouncing around while marching, playing in an outdoor acoustic environment with almost zero ability to hear further than 6 feet from you, and play basically 2 styles of music namely marches and hymns. The best way I have found so far to combat forming bad habits is to spend considerable more time each day playing with good habits in more controlled surroundings with more diverse music. This translated means practicing several hours per day the music of my choosing.

Something else which really helps me is to practice under the best condusive conditions each day BEFORE I ever go into the more habitually challenging environment, namely Sousaphone for me and a weak band for you. Spend 20 minutes each morning before you go to school practicing your instrument at home, if the family can tolerate it. If they can't then ask for a Silent Brass for your birthday. That early practice session of long tones and intervals will reaffirm each day to your face and mind the proper way to make sounds and music on your horn.

These are some things which seem to help me. Take what you like and discard the leftovers.

[Captain Sousie]

Good stuff man. I couldn't have said it better myself.

No wonder you run this place.

Sousie

[JB]

In my band we have way to many tubas for the size of the band, 5 tubas for about 55+ people. Im taking private lessons and my teacher keeps telling me to play louder and then when i go back to class the tubas are told to drop everything down to about pp so that we dont over power the band. This is starting to make me use about as much air as a trumpet player in every peice i play, should i just forget about it for the sound of the group or should i talk with my director?

I here ya brother. When I was in high school I remember this exact scenario. Most of the band played with thin unsupported sounds and when I played with, what I had at the time at least, a full supported sound I stuck out like explosives going off at a prayer vigil.

To be honest, I just had to live with it until I got to college. The real solution is to have a group which plays with full sounds from pp-ff. That is rare in a high school band.

As far as the private teacher telling you to play "louder" he is probably more interested in a full resonant supported sound throughout the dynamic ranges. Even a soft pp sound should project to the back of a hall. Resonance is defined in the dictionary as "Intensification and prolongation of sound, especially of a musical tone, produced by sympathetic vibration" You want to make the room alive with your sound through beauty not by force. Try to make the walls vibrate with your sound in the kindest way you can muster. Brute force is rarely an efficient way to accomplish these goals.

...

Spend 20 minutes each morning before you go to school practicing your instrument at home, if the family can tolerate it. If they can't then ask for a Silent Brass for your birthday. That early practice session of long tones and intervals will reaffirm each day to your face and mind the proper way to make sounds and music on your horn.

These are some things which seem to help me. Take what you like and discard the leftovers.

From those of us who both play and teach (including tutoring some students at pre-univsersity, public school level), thank you for a very straight forward and dead-on-the -bull's-eye response. I'm willing to bet that every private teacher out there is trying to do exactly as you suppose: working to develop full, resonant, supported sound throughout the dynamic ranges.

Captain Susie's post is correct in explaining further:

My teacher did this to me and he had a good rationale. When I would play softly or at anything less than a mf I would start to lose the support that I needed because I hadn't yet realised what you need to do to play softly with air.

Read again what each of these folks has said (above) about "full, resonant sound" and "playing softly with air." Therein is the key.

[My teacher] started having me play at nothing less than a mf while keeping the sound in control. This helped me to keep the support that I needed to achieve a good sound. Then, after I had a good foundation of support, he started working with me to play gradually softer and to use even more support while doing so. This worked wonders and soon I was able to play a ppp and sound as good as if I was playing mf-f.]

Capt. Susie spells it out exactly, along with the underlying reason for doing so.

Sound advice (no pun intended ) from both posters.


.

[Chuck(G)]

In my band we have way to many tubas for the size of the band, 5 tubas for about 55+ people...

Not treally; consider the standard configuration of a British brass band is about 28 players, and that includes 4 tubas (2 Eb, 2 Bb basses) and percussion.

Learning to control and use dynamic expression is something (as Sean says) will come with time and maturity.

Hang in there.

[Dylan King]

Playing loud is essencial to developing a great sound. Your teacher may mean that you play loud in practice, which you should be doing. With the group it is important to do what the conductor wants.

Bring down the walls at home, and sound like a wussy french horn in rehearsal.

[TonyTuba]

A private teacher is teaching you how to play the tuba. A band director is teaching you how to play in his band. On the high school leve, a tuba student with and advanced sound concept can be too much for the ensemble surrounding them. There is nothing you can do about it. you can not develop all of the other players in your band to play with your openess and volumes.

When you practice, practice loud. When you play in band, play the way your band director likes. keeps everyone happy. Someday, you wil play in a group that needs, and can handle your sound.

BTW, I have several students that encounter this problem everyday. One is first chair all state and is in one the the premiere band programs in the state. The symphonic band he plays in every day is conducted by one of the best directors in the business. he inderstands the issue, but has an ensemble to attend to. Even if you are in the army band....the director is going to tell you how to play and balance in his ensemble. this will never change. gotta roll with it...and practice to rise above it.

[Leland]

Quoted for emphasis:

A private teacher is teaching you how to play the tuba. A band director is teaching you how to play in his band.

Even if you are in the army band....the director is going to tell you how to play and balance in his ensemble. this will never change.

I can't really add anything to this thread -- everything's been said already. The premiere DC bands weren't simply born sounding great; they still work on ensemble clarity, and they have the discipline to stick with what they fixed in rehearsals.

*edit* Well, maybe just one thing...

The reason why everyone is saying to do what the director says isn't necessarily because it's "his ensemble", but it's because he's the only one who can really hear what's going on. Being on the mouthpiece side of the instrument, you really can not tell what's happening with your sound and how well it fits with the rest of the ensemble.

You have to trust the person in front to tell you what's right and what's wrong. Rehearsals are like PA system sound checks -- let him be the one to work the sliders on the board, so to speak.

If you don't trust the director (been there, too), then just do what he says and do it exceptionally well, and remember that it's his fault.

[Joe Baker]

If you don't trust the director (been there, too), then just do what he says and do it exceptionally well, and remember that it's his fault.

I know this was a little tongue in cheek, but it's also so true! No one wants someone else's mistake to cause them to look bad. If I chip a note, I look bad, not the director. But if I stick out and ruin the balance of the ensemble, the director looks bad because of my problem.

I consider it like any other job: the boss ain't always right, but he's always the boss. My job is to please the director; his job is to please the audience.
________________________________
Joe Baker, who gets aggravated by band members who think they know more than the director, so they can do whatever they want.

[hurricane_harry]

In my band we have way to many tubas for the size of the band, 5 tubas for about 55+ people. Im taking private lessons and my teacher keeps telling me to play louder and then when i go back to class the tubas are told to drop everything down to about pp so that we dont over power the band. This is starting to make me use about as much air as a trumpet player in every peice i play, should i just forget about it for the sound of the group or should i talk with my director?

concider yourself lucky, in my high school we have 2 tubas for 85+.

[CJ Krause]

***

[JayW]

It is almost like I am back in time listening to everyone's comments......they are all soooo true . One thing I always found the case is that most Band Directors (at least many of them at the HS level) tend to not fully understand what a tuba can do and the sound it is capable of playing. Not that he doesnt know the sound he wants.... and maybe the bass is a little too much at times, but I would suspect that he is simply not prepared for the sound he is hearing and therefore trying to make an adjustment. I know I always dreaded one of our student teachers in HS because he was a to be unnamed woodwind player who was always asking the brass (specifically low brass) to play quieter because he wanted more from the clarinets and flutes (hint hint). Of course i have also observed the opposite when someone who is a lowbrass or tuna player steps up, they have welcomed a more powerful tuba sound. Just a thought...... What does your "director" play? that may have a little bit to do with it.

[JayW]

yeah...I'll have to see a doctor about that..... wonder where my head is if i am seeing fish playing brass instruments. hmmmmmmm

[MartyNeilan]

I have found that during my brief time so far in the public school system as a student teacher, most brass students at the middle and high school level have NO CLUE what real dynamics are. Everything is played somewhere between MP and MF. And when you ask them to play loud, their first instinct is to blat and blast until they are shown properly, unfortunately this used to be encouraged in some schools for the marching band (fortunately that trend is dying away.) Believe it or not, one of the biggest priorities given to me as a teacher by the two head BD's is to get my kids to play louder in band, especially the trombones .

Practice loud with a good sound at least some of the time; you will never be able to play loud with a good sound if you never practice it. FWIW, the rest of the group should be encouraged to play with a full sound, using lots of air (I love telling my high school students to "Breathe my pasty friend, Breathe!" like the lozenges commercials.) Unfortunately, it may not be your place to do so. I am lucky to have two good and experienced BD's to be teaching under, who also respect me as a player. (The fact that I am around their age doesn't hurt, either.) While setting certain limits, they give me a fair amount of freedom to work within.