TubeNet

On TubeNet, we're more than tuba players, we're fanatics. So I thought it may be interesting to have a thread dedicated to the evolution of the tuba. I'm looking for some answers to common "facts" like 'why is the BBb tuba the most prevalent in school bands, while the CC is the most "professional" choice?' And were any other keys of horns (BB, AA, AAb, etc) known to ever exist, or used? More questions like this could really make for a fascinating thread.

Brian, be transparent or you will be kaned.

Klaus

Brian just is cross because he cannot hide behind his tuba.

Klaus

goodgigs wrote:Bad judgment on my part.
I had built two other plastic tubas that were almost the same, but I had to be a smart *** and build a clear one.
WHAT A MISTAKE.
It plays good, it sounds ok, but I can't blow a note on it without every one in the room staring at me.
I'm sick of it.
If you want it I'll sell it to you.
I'll consider any trade.
PM me.

Price?

back on topic....school music programs really came about as a result of Sousa et al. They used BBb and Eb. Now...the question is why dId THEY use them? ref: British traditions. but, still, why? The answer to these and other important questions...coming up next. Unless you can find a Bevan quickly.

eupher61 wrote:back on topic....school music programs really came about as a result of Sousa et al. They used BBb and Eb. Now...the question is why dId THEY use them? ref: British traditions. but, still, why? The answer to these and other important questions...coming up next. Unless you can find a Bevan quickly.

This is exactly the sort of curiosity I was referring to. Thanks Eupher! Hopefully others cn follow up!

BiffWebster wrote:On TubeNet, we're more than tuba players, we're fanatics. So I thought it may be interesting to have a thread dedicated to the evolution of the tuba. I'm looking for some answers to common "facts" like 'why is the BBb tuba the most prevalent in school bands, while the CC is the most "professional" choice?' And were any other keys of horns (BB, AA, AAb, etc) known to ever exist, or used? More questions like this could really make for a fascinating thread.

Rather than a thread about the evolution of the tuba, it might be more fascinating to focus on the evolution of tuba fanatics. (Myself excluded, of course.)
Ace

goodgigs wrote:Biff, we have a search engine built into this board.

When I tried to search on "tuba evolution America", this was the response:

"No suitable matches were found."

Using Advanced Search with the same keywords, the only thread that came up dealing with the topic at hand was this very one.

I would assume Biff got the same negative results when he tried, eh?

Heavy_Metal wrote:

goodgigs wrote:Biff, we have a search engine built into this board.

When I tried to search on "tuba evolution America", this was the response:

"No suitable matches were found."

Using Advanced Search with the same keywords, the only thread that came up dealing with the topic at hand was this very one.

I would assume Biff got the same negative results when he tried, eh?

Correct. I searched around, trying to find a suitable answer to the evolution/why we use X keys here and Y keys there/misc. facts and tidbits. Came up with nothing that really stuck out. I'm just thinking that myself (and hopefully others) could gain even more tuba appreciation from a thorough thread about the evolution of our "weapon of choice".

The boards search engine sucks, imho. I use google, it yields more results.

http://www.google.ca/search?q=site%3Ach ... on+america" target="_blank

Is the question about evolution or devolution?

Adolphe Sax outlined a C&F series of saxophones intended for orchestral use. And a Bb&Eb series for band & military use. The Bb&Eb series won out on all fields. His Saxhorn line only came in Bb&Eb with the Eb flugelhorn as the lead soprano and the Eb tuba as the contrabass. This choice of pitches dominated the early decades of the British brass band movement. Sax mostly made piston instruments, only a few rotor instruments.

The period instruments in the US were also called Saxhorns and were tuned in Bb&Eb, only they mostly, if not exclusively, were rotor instruments.

From Sousa’s tuba parts it can be deduced that he started using 4 valve Eb basses shortly after 1880. And the sousaphone history proves the use of BBb basses from around 1890.

Continental Europe was less standardized. The tutor I was started by in 1960 had fingering tables for tubas in F, Eb, Db, and BBb (maybe also CC, but I am not positive in that matter). CC tubas were not common on the continent, but they existed, as August Helleberg got the CC idea from a German tubist. And my own CC is German from before WWII.

The fewer pitches within sections, the easier group teaching will be. That is one of the factors furthering standard pitches.

Klaus

imperialbari wrote:Adolphe Sax outlined a C&F series of saxophones intended for orchestral use. And a Bb&Eb series for band & military use. The Bb&Eb series won out on all fields. His Saxhorn line only came in Bb&Eb with the Eb flugelhorn as the lead soprano and the Eb tuba as the contrabass. This choice of pitches dominated the early decades of the British brass band movement. Sax mostly made piston instruments, only a few rotor instruments.

The period instruments in the US were also called Saxhorns and were tuned in Bb&Eb, only they mostly, if not exclusively, were rotor instruments.

From Sousa’s tuba parts it can be deduced that he started using 4 valve Eb basses shortly after 1880. And the sousaphone history proves the use of BBb basses from around 1890.

Continental Europe was less standardized. The tutor I was started by in 1960 had fingering tables for tubas in F, Eb, Db, and BBb (maybe also CC, but I am not positive in that matter). CC tubas were not common on the continent, but they existed, as August Helleberg got the CC idea from a German tubist. And my own CC is German from before WWII.

The fewer pitches within sections, the easier group teaching will be. That is one of the factors furthering standard pitches.

Klaus

Another reason of the CC prominence was with early American tubists ie. Bill Bell, Harvey Phillips, Arnold Jacobs, all used CC horns as their main weapon for orchestra. With the major American manufactures (early 1900s) starting to produce CC's in larger sizes along with the BBb's, players now had a wider range of choice as far as what horn they wanted to play. But primarily I think it falls down to what horn you feel comfortable with and what type of music you perform. All of the keys have makes and model horns that are outstanding players each with different strenghths. Also your professors have a lot of sway. If they learned in college on a CC then you will also most likely be learning a CC. I think that the BIGGEST reason for the shift between contries and regions is based solely on tradition of the region and not just which key is better. But do certain people give you crap if you dont play a horn that is popular to that country....You bet ya...I have heard stories of American tubists in orchestras going over to tour eastern European contries to perform and getting grief for their horn just as some people would get grief for using a BBb instead of a CC in orchestra here in the US. But in all I do find this subject interesting.

DP wrote:

Heavy_Metal wrote: When I tried to search on "tuba evolution America", this was the response:
"No suitable matches were found."

Good grief, in this "internet age", what DO people learn in school now-a-days
if you don't even walk away knowing HOW to use search engines?

Hey Joe, maybe watching these folks line up for the boxcars wouldn't be a bad thing, eh?

Discuss THAT boneheads.....

Well! Thank you for such a POSITIVE contribution to this thread. I feel so much better now.

Now don't single me out, Bloke. At least I'm WAITING. Once you posted pictures of that purty CC helicon to the TubeNet community, you pasted a target on your back...

Mikelynch wrote:Now don't single me out, Bloke. At least I'm WAITING. Once you posted pictures of that purty CC helicon to the TubeNet community, you pasted a target on your back...

The Holton ain't bad neither . . .

I believe the idea of front piston tubas which is very much an American idea came from fitting sousaphone valve sets onto tubas. The idea of the 6/4 BAT also came from trying to make upright tubas sound like sousaphones.

I would be interested why the Eb tuba went out of fashion in US - it is surely a better size tuba to start kids on than a Bb?

Neptune wrote:I would be interested why the Eb tuba went out of fashion in US - it is surely a better size tuba to start kids on than a Bb?

While that's debatable, I think it's beside the point. Which came first, chicken or egg? I think bass tuba disappeared not because the schools dropped it, but conversely the schools dropped it because it was no important to US bands. (Not that this answers the question.)

40 years ago I saw an American tuba method, rather elementrary, claiming that Eb basses went out of fashion as beginners’ tubas because the change to BBb called for a relearning of the relationship between note names and fingerings. Starting on baritone just called for an octave shift of reading when going to BBb.

Klaus

tstryk wrote:I just can't imagien why ANYONE would have thought it a good idea to have transposing instruments! It is a hard concept to grasp, but try explaining it to 7th graders!!! Explain to Sarah why is is that when she plays a C on her clarinet it doesn't match the C her mom plays on the piano OR the C that her brother played on his Alto Sax!

Actually, if you give beginners the benefit of the doubt, they will grasp that concept quite easily. IF (and this is a big caveat) they have had some semblance of quality in their classroom music previously. I've seen this done with great success in 2 different situations, all--or most, as is normal--of the beginners could rattle off each other's written pitches with no problem. But, one situation where the classroom music was less than adequate, almost to the point of non-existant, that failed miserably.

As with so many other things, you gotta give the kids the benefit of the doubt.