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New style 186 versus new style 2341. Aside from the obvious rotors v pistons , please offer constructive comparisons - Amy thoughts on future value also appreciated - considering a swap - and missing the pistons

Both are:
- very in tune, very nice medium BBb's
- a bit tight in the low register
- Seem to sell in the $3000-$4000 range used.
- I actually prefer the older versions of both

The 186 is:
- "German" (duh)
- a bit better in the high register

The 2341 is:
- "American" (again, duh)
- a bit more broad in sound

The newer 186's have a broader 17 3/4 inch bell flare, kind of like the tuba version of a Bach 37 trumpet bell, which gives it a more "vanilla" tone, kind of half way between the old stove pipe bell and a King bell.

They both have their ideosyncracies of intonation: flat 5th partials on the Miraphone, sharp 6th partials on the King.

Depending on the particular instrument, if you want 1st valve slide pull, you might have to have the King valve circuit "flipped."

And remember the infamous "King Spin" to eliminate trapped water in the valve slides.

Both are relatively mouthpiece-neutral.

It really boils down to preference. If I had not found my 186 with both bells, I would have a King 4-valve with both bells.

I have not played the new 2341 so this might not apply.....

The old "Monster" BBb rotary models tended to play quite sharp on the F and my current 1241 wants to do the same. HOWEVER, they will easily play well in tune if you send a strong pitch in. A little practice and it becomes "second nature" and not a problem.

In my experience, opening up the mpc receiver a bit largely overcomes this AND opens up the low range. With that and a couple other minor mods, my 1241 makes me feel it is almost criminal to cut these to make CCs when there are now plenty of good CC tubas available but not so many really good, affordable BBb s as they can be, say after the tinkerer has reworked them. Mine is now "fixed" upright bell. That REALLY made a difference!

Will say, I am really looking forward to the day I have my 186 alive!!!!!

If you have not read the following, it might be helpful -- http://www.rickdenney.com/york_vs_miraphone.htm" target="_blank
I have a King 2341 new design that I have been playing for a little over 14 months. It became a much better horn than out of the box recently when I had the springs changed out to Yamaha springs -- much more agile and responsive, and lighter on the touch. It also helped to switch to a thicker oil (Hetman's # 3) -- much cleaner and in tune sound when playing cold horn, and I also had the valve guides swapped out to nylon guides. A couple of weeks ago I got a 70's 186 from Dan Schultz with a recording bell for some outdoor concerts later this year with the community concert bands I play in. I found Rick Denney's comments about the difference between the York and Miraphone to be pretty descriptive of what I have experienced with these two different horns. The swapping of the springs and changing valve oil with the King significantly improved the "touch" of the King. Otherwise, the Miraphone would have had a better playablility of touch from my perspective.

The King does everything I need to do at the level I am capable of playing, especially since the changing of springs and valve oil, as does the Miraphone. The King is more forgiving in the sense that when I aim for a pitch outside of mid range unless its above the staff I'm going to nail it. With the Miraphone (which I've only had a couple of weeks and it may just be a need for more practice time with this horn so I'm not willing to blame it on the horn) outside of mid range where I aim I don't always hit (either really high or really low) and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing different, but the Miraphone does seem significantly more sensitive pitch buzz being off. Been using the same mouthpiece on both horns (Blokepiece Symphony). However, I have been amazed when playing scales with the Miraphone how many times I been able to hit middle c and above where the sound has a musical quality, something that when I try to do with the King sounds something akin to a 1000 cats having their tails stepped on at the precise same moment in time. I get, for lack of a better way to say it, a richer sound on the bottom with the King.

If the King had come out of the box with the playing qualities it had after the recent changing springs and valve oil, I'd probably not gotten the Miraphone, or if I had found the Miraphone when I first started looking for a horn a couple of years ago I wouldn't have gotten the King.

I feel this is a hard comparison to make. Both are great middle of the road horns and are everywhere with plenty of parts and people with knowledge for repairs and modifications. As far as comparing them they are apples to oranges. I could go in to detail but many other moderaters already have. I think you need to decide what type of sound you really want. They are very diferent in sound production with sound characteristics. If you are wanting definition and focus, around in all registers the 186 is your ticket. If you want the more characteristic American sound with a broader feel and less focus than the 2141 is your horn. But If you are not aware of either concept listen to some examples (maybe youtube) and listen for what I am describing.

I haven't spent much time with the 2341, but I think the 186 is a VERY comfortable tuba to hold. Also, the bell is up and away from your head, which I like more than the 2341.