TubeNet

Honest curiosity here... how much (if any) of the exhibitor fees, travel expenses, etc. for this are tax-deductible as business expenses?

Joe, weren't you one of the ones leading the charge against a student that was asking for financial help to go on a trip with her school ensemble? (Granted, she was asking to do something that wasn't required, and something that she could have easily paid for out of her own pocket by delivering pizzas for a few weeks or months.) But now, you are saying that a business shouldn't have to pay a legitimate business expense to participate at an event where said business could possibly make a profit? Maybe you could deliver a few pizzas on the way to the conference to cover the registration fee?

As a music publisher who attends many events for various instruments, let's break down some of the fees etc.

For something like the DC Army Tuba Conference, this is somewhat typical but nothing exact

Rental van = $300.00
Hotel = $250.00
Tables = $800.00
Food = $150.00
Gas = $200.00

I start about $1700.00 in the hole before selling a single piece of sheet music or a CD. Add on the costs to produce whatever I brought along and I am further in the hole. So let's say $2200.00 total just to throw a number out there.

For me, I am at least lucky enough to produce most of what I sell so my costs are lower compared to Bloke, Dillon, Hickey's etc. who many times have to buy and then resell. Essentially their profit margin is smaller than mine.

For regionals for any instrument, the conferences are always a shot in the dark on attendance. My guess is that many times most of us who are small cannot afford to drop $2200.00 before selling anything and take a chance on a show. It is a tough decision on what to attend and not attend. I generally choose very carefully and over the years have done quite well.

Do people go to conferences for the conferences or for the exhibits? Probably a combination of both, but when fees are high sometimes dealers have to make the tough decision to not attend or attend something else. This really hurts everyone.

There was a conference within 30 miles of me recently so the costs would have been super low. The price of the table just did not make it worth giving up the day. It is a balance and as a business there are so many things that come into play before deciding whether to go or not go. I would love to attend every conference, but it will never happen!

My 2.5 cents,

But isn't there a concept of future sales? Didn't we cover this (sort of) when I asked how many of your great tubas you had to haul back to TN with you (which I think was most of them, but you said that's sort of normal)? Does that count as conference sales to you? Same with the mouthpieces (i'm sure more people try than buy) and with the Holton restorations you did (I'm sure people probably saw that and said "Hey Joe, how about...").

Same as you, I don't mean to offend, but just seems like there's a LOT of indirect value in going and showing off your stuff... at the right conferences. At least for tubas and gear (as necessary as sheet music is, people just don't get riled up around it the same way as they do with shiny metal things. )

LJV wrote:Entry fees for these regional events seem to vary widely, too. Some even require spouses of attendees/parents of attending HS students to join ITEA and pay a full fee. I've already had conversations with a couple regional folk about that to no avail. Not great recruiting for their own studios. I had a bunch of annoyed parents decline to have their kids participate last year 'round these parts.

I have experienced this too. My wife is not a musician; but she is a great supporter of her tuba playing husband. There was a regional ITEA conference scheduled for a Holiday weekend we had planned to spend together. She was more than willing to go to the conference and I was willing to pay the conference fee for her to attend. Then I found out that she would also have to become a member of ITEA or she would not be allowed to attend. We are NOT going and I am NOT renewing my membership in ITEA. If losing one member and two conference attendees is what ITEA was trying to accoplish, they have succeeded.

BVD Press wrote:
For the DC Army Tuba Conference, this is somewhat typical but nothing exact

Rental van = $300.00
Hotel = $250.00
Tables = $800.00
Food = $150.00
Gas = $200.00

"Micro" is a relative term. $800 does seems a bit stiff. Last time I paid a table fee it was @$200.

I changed the wording, it should have read "For something like the DC Army Tuba Conference". I stand by the $800 for many shows. This is just not tuba, but all conferences.

To get more concrete and exact numbers, NERTEC is the closest regional to me and starts at $400 and then $90 for each additional table.

"
3. Non-Noise: Non-Sound Producing Room
$400 for one 8' table and two conference badges
"

My typical 4 tables would $670.00.

By comparison, the MidWest show starts at $1050.00 for a 10x10 booth plus the costs of Chicago. TMEA starts at $550.00 per table.

Now get back to Joe's point about regional conferences and many are pricey when you look at probable foot traffic and success. Do you know how many Horn Conferences I have been to with less than 20 attendees for the whole weekend? Each person would need to walk out with a library of music to cover just the costs to get there and exhibit!

There is definitely value in going to shows, but you always have to figure out where to spend your time and money.

I really have no issues with the hosts charging whatever they can, but if the fees are very high it will eliminate some exhibitors. Just like determining the price of a new tuba quartet: at what point does a higher price cost me a sale?

Now back to creating more music to sell at the next show,

bloke wrote:

bort wrote:But isn't there a concept of future sales?

just as with future tenure, future students, (just like future sales: with zero guarantees) and (for attendees) present enlightenment...

bloke "already covered all of this"

Well... not really what I meant. I was really just getting at the idea of the conference as advertising. Do you think you could make more money from sales following the conference, as a result of having displayed at the conference?

Maybe Joe will stop and wonder how he could go to an event like the Army Conference and have to bring most of his products back home with him yet other vendors turn inventory like crazy? No, I'm sure he already knows why that happens. The other vendors poison the crowd and offer items at prices that couldn't possibly be profit generating. Or maybe it's all their fake personalities....all those guys that seem like they just love to talk about the tuba but in reality all they want you to do is buy from them so that Joe can't make a profit. I'm sure that's it! Whatever!

I have to chime in on this one.

In the past 10 years I have probably exhibited at more regionals than anyone else. Some hosts will never forget me because I give them lip over exhibitor costs. Even when I have heard it all, something new comes out.

A common thread is "All you have to do is sell one horn and you've more than made up for it." There are two sides to the exhibitor's take: For those who sells horns, the margian is not very high. If they are making 10% it's a good sale and that does not happen much these days. The other exhibitors are those like me who sell books, music, CDs and accessories. I have never seen a major music publisher at a regional or ITEC! Most are not publishing much new brass music. The slack is being taken up by micropublishers but all of them have problems. Some have a symphony or teaching job, many have no web page or take plastic. Composers would like to meet people, sell their stuff and maybe get an idea for a new work. All of them are operating on a low budget and cannot afford to exhibit. Here is the dilema - these people are the future of brass music and should be encouraged to exhibit but many hosts look at exhibitors as a cash cow and have the rates very high. It does not work!

In February, I did two shows, kept travel expenses way down and still lost money. This past weekend I did a horn show that cost $25 for a table, drove there, did a Priceline hotel, ate at the Bell and took a hit. For the Army show, I flew on a pass, used my aunt's car, stayed with my cousin and still took a hit! Last week I got into an argument with the host of an upcoming regional who packaged an ad and prize money together saying he was giving away an exhibit table for $200. Although it is in driving range, I will lose money. For my company this is not good, for me, I'd rather take the time and fly off somewhere warm away from the 3-6" of snow falling right now! Last year I only did the Army show, this year I am rethinking everything and might just stay in the office.

The horn people realize that exhibits are a big part of their shows. I have done a few that for the $25 fee they even include lunch! Most people who go to Midwest only go for the exhibits. Something is wrong when hosts are trying to discourage exhibitors by high rates when they should be encouraging them to coem to their shows. It doesn't make any sense!

"TubeNet was angry that day my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli"


To paraphrase George Costanza

I wish to address comments made by king2ba, which are childish and unwelcome. I doubt that you were at the aforementioned conference on the East Coast about a month ago. Bloke was, and he sold more than I did. He is quite personable, knows his subject matter well, and is generally a pleasure to deal with. You should get to meet the man in person - you might even like him. By the way, no one was making huge sales at that show, except the snack bar at the bowling alley.

The business climate is pretty grim right now, and the last two conferences I exhibited at, in November and January, were the financially worst I've encountered since my business started in 1999. I saw many old acquaintances, including Bloke, and a number of TubeNetters, many of which are loyal customers and friends. That was good, and hope springs eternal for future sales. As others have said, I simply must weigh the prospects before I exhibit. If there is a demand for what I offer, good. But, by the same token, as a small guy I cannot afford to take an expensive unpaid working vacation. The brass event I attended in November cost me close to $1,500.00 to attend, was for just one day, and most event attendees did not even come to the exhibit hall. After experiencing a day with $0 in sales or repairs, and zero follow-up business afterwards, I will have a hard time justifying ever going there again.

I have heard one musician say that, before the internet, they used to do a large percentage of their buying at conference exhibits, where they could see sheet music, CD's mouthpieces, instruments in person, compare, and purchase. The musician continued, saying that because of the internet and free shipping offered these days, that they have much less incentive to go to exhibit halls at conferences and purchase - shop around, maybe, but not purchase. What do you folks think?

In this year, though, I'm once again glad that I depend mainly upon repairs, not sales to make a living. I had arranged to pick-up/drop-off instruments with half-a-dozen customers between Iowa and Washington, DC, and one such meeting with two customers on the way home generated 50% as much profit as the show itself. In that way, I almost paid for the trip, even though I had the worst sales results in 11 years. I have favored the US Army Band's Conference above all others because of the low cost to attendees, reasonable fees for exhibitors, and because it is a well-run, quality event. I certainly hope that this conference continues, and that others would look to their model of quality and high standards.

Lee Stofer wrote:I have heard one musician say that, before the internet, they used to do a large percentage of their buying at conference exhibits, where they could see sheet music, CD's mouthpieces, instruments in person, compare, and purchase. The musician continued, saying that because of the internet and free shipping offered these days, that they have much less incentive to go to exhibit halls at conferences and purchase - shop around, maybe, but not purchase. What do you folks think?

You are more than dead on here! What is in the exhibit halls is no longer "special". It can be ordered and easily purchased at any time. This same theory can be applied to performances as well. Why go and listen when you can listen via YouTube with a beer in your hand later?

Technology is wonderful, but it also hurts us in so many ways.

BVD Press wrote:

Lee Stofer wrote:I have heard one musician say that, before the internet, they used to do a large percentage of their buying at conference exhibits, where they could see sheet music, CD's mouthpieces, instruments in person, compare, and purchase. The musician continued, saying that because of the internet and free shipping offered these days, that they have much less incentive to go to exhibit halls at conferences and purchase - shop around, maybe, but not purchase. What do you folks think?

You are more than dead on here! What is in the exhibit halls is no longer "special". It can be ordered and easily purchased at any time. This same theory can be applied to performances as well. Why go and listen when you can listen via YouTube with a beer in your hand later?

Technology is wonderful, but it also hurts us in so many ways.

I use the internet for a lot of my shopping, but in large part because I cannot attend many of the conferences and those that I am able to attend do not have much in the way of exhibitors and also because of my remote location. When I was teaching in Colorado I usually spent quite a bit of money at the CMEA conference every January, both of my personal money and from my school budget. The last conference I attended I was able to meet one of our own Tubenetters and purchase a few pieces of music because I was able to get my hands on it and because he was there to make personal recommendations for my needs.

Having been on both sides of this equation (both clinician and conference organizer) I can see both sides of the argument. If a conference organizer asked me to pay a fee over and above my travel costs to be a clinician at their conference, the answer would almost certainly be no. As a conference organizer, I know that the top artists demand a fee for their participation. The conference we organized down here had Arnold Jacobs, Ron Bishop, Fritz Kaenzig, and Joe Dollard. Those guys don't come cheap nor do they need to pad any sort of resume by doing our conference. With conference participants screaming bloody murder about the conference attendance fees, where does the money come from to pay for everything needed? We were lucky to have sponsors that provided nearly free access to facilities, plus other financial donors that gave us enough money to go forward. Having been in the position of finding the money needed for a conference, I know you are looking everywhere for help.

I think those that posted earlier about the rise of the internet as a free market are very close to the root of the problem. Previously, a conference was one of the few places you could go (other than the less than 5 mass retailers back then) to try out and purchase some of these horns or even see them. I think people now use exhibitors at conferences as a place to try horns out but they don't usually buy there. They take the information gathered and then find the best price online.

I don't have a solution to the problem, someone much smarter than me will have to find that. But I suspect that the free market system will eventually sort itself out and when the exhibitors find that conference presence isn't such a great thing for their business, they'll stop attending. At that point conference organizers will be at a crossroads where they will be forced to find the money for the conference from another source.

Lee Stofer wrote: I have heard one musician say that, before the internet, they used to do a large percentage of their buying at conference exhibits, where they could see sheet music, CD's mouthpieces, instruments in person, compare, and purchase. The musician continued, saying that because of the internet and free shipping offered these days, that they have much less incentive to go to exhibit halls at conferences and purchase - shop around, maybe, but not purchase. What do you folks think?

And what's worse, many people "shop around" at conferences, then go home and hop online to find the lowest prices on stuff, meaning many who attend conferences as vendors are actually offering free advertising for their competitors.

I tend to buy from the exhibitors I meet at conferences, if not there on the spot, then later via phone or internet for that reason. If I try a horn at a Dillon booth but music123.whatever offers it for less, I'll still buy from Dillon because I will ALWAYS pay more for good customer service.

Hey Joe,

Agreed. Most of the regional conferences at that time were staffed not by the superstar types but by more local (not any less spectacular) guys. The conference we organized here was probably the exception rather than the rule. If travel expenses can be adequately controlled, I think clinicians would be more inclined to your ideas instead of extracting a fee for their presence. Limiting clinicians to local folks makes sense financially but it might hurt attendance. Not because those folks aren't worth coming to see but because they are already local and accessible. The big draw for these conferences is when you bring in folks who are extremely well known and not in the local area. Our conference had over 150 attendees, IIRC, so our clinicians delivered in that regard.

Maybe we all should be taking grant writing courses to help fund these things!!!

WOW!! You guys really spend a lot on a space!! I go to ACC shows High end stuff and it only costs me 400 but I have paid up to 700..a national show I have to be "juried" in even though I'm a juried member..(no guarentee to get in show)then I have to be there no reps..<s>I make everything talk about a gamble<s>I carry my own tables and display cases tent lighting I do pay for electric sometimes.....your shows seem way too high!! A few shows I attended only charged us a persentige for what we sold of course you had to open up your books<s> Lower rates more exibitors..I cant get over that not only do you pay for space but everything else!! Bummer..Think they would go for a small percentige??(of course people have been known to cheat<s>)..anyway sorry to interupt just a comment from the peanut gallery<s>....BB

bloke wrote:

bort wrote:Honest curiosity here... how much (if any) of the exhibitor fees, travel expenses, etc. for this are tax-deductible as business expenses?

To deduct expenses from a taxable income, one must first have a taxable income...and enough of an income to itemize.

Bloke,

That is only partially true. If you have a net loss from self-employment, you can carryover the loss to years where you have income. (This is subject to certain limitations and is true also for corporations.) You must deduct business expenses to arrive at your self-employment income, even if it results in a net loss. It may not benefit you (in that particular year), but you have to deduct those expenses. (This rule is different for corporations.) Itemizing is irrelevant to whether you can deduct a net loss from self-employment. What is relevant is having enough income (perhaps spousal income if MFJ), to offset the loss.

I do have a question of my own: Why can't you guys operate like tool sellers at auto repair shops/dealerships? In other words, schedule an appointment to set up a display at a university and haul your merchandise down there for try-outs/sales?

Now this thread seems to be going to the subject of how to pay for a regional. Let's face it, a regional is not an ITEC. The international tuba world does not meet at a regional - that is why there are regionals then ITEC's.

A university tuba studio comes to the regional, their ensemble plays a few pieces, their teacher may play as part of a recital, maybe a student or two enters a competition, everyone looks at the exhibits and they all get drunk with those from other studios - it's a good road trip - the teacher reports back to their university that they did something in the tuba world and everyone is happy. For a weekend warrior, they come in, meet others, play in a mass ensemble and look at the exhibits. An ITEC should be the best of the best not taking every tuba ensemble that wants to come (just to spike enrollment), have competion finals (inviting regional winners) and awarding monetary prizes. Recitals by international players and generally a meeting of the international tuba world.

From a financial aspect, these are two different ballgames. The tuba world only uses university facilities which a university showcases themselves. For example look at the University of Denver which hosted an ITEC, the ITG and IHS and maybe other instruments in the past few years. The cost was nothing or almost nothing. Then there are the artist's fees. The National Flute Association refuses to pay anyone and has a rule that any person can only appear once every three years to keep each show from having the same people year after year. I remember one year they were in Chicago and wanted Arnold Jacobs. He gave them a reduced fee and they turned him down. He did the Northwestern University ITEC for nothing out of loyalty for his instrument but they had to pay for his hotel. This brings up another point, who pays the expenses for an artist? Many times they are sponsored by a company who is recognized. A university may sponsor their teacher. Many times a company will sponsor a lecture, very common at the flute convention and I have done a ton of Jacobs lectures at various shows paying my own way. In my case, I charge anything and everything on an airline credit card and use milage to travel to shows. Why not solicit airline and hotel rewards from some friends of the tuba?

What I am getting to is that you have to be creative how to pay for a show. A regional is not an ITEC and should not cost as much. You have heard from a number of exhibitors - they are losing at each show and are dropping the number of shows they attend. Regionals seem to have competions with cash prizes to draw students in. Why? If not having the honor of being declared a winner, a comment sheet from judges with the possibility of going to an ITEC for a prize is not enough of an incentive to come, stay home. These prizes take away money needed in other areas and keeps sponsors from nickel and diming the exhibitors.

Finally, do something encourage the future of brass music, the micropublishers. A few years ago I worked a computer show for my brother. They had all the big exhibitors but in the back they had 8 foot tables where really small guys could pay for a full table or half table at a bargai basement rate to exhibit. These people need to be encouraged!