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I've been silent on this forum for quite some time, but here I am back again for some much-needed advice. I've got my master's degree in performance (tuba), and as a result have been waiting tables and bartending for the last four years while playing as much as I can. I've come to the point where I am pretty tired of being poor, not having health insurance, and being largely musically unfulfilled. The only logical conclusion that I can reach that will allow me some measure of security while allowing me to do what I love is getting a college job. The obvious issue with this is that I have a very limited level of employability without my doctorate.

I'm very concerned that it may not be worth the financial burden of further student loans. While I do not regret getting my master's, I would hesitate to advise anyone of pursuing a master's of music because of the very limited payoff for the large amount of work and stress. I'm wondering if I would have the same conclusion after a lengthy DMA program.

So what is your opinion? Is a DMA worth it? Those of you in the college job search, how is it looking, and what are your projections for coming years?

DMA for tuba players: only worth it if the degree is free, and you are doing it for the sheer pleasure of studying music.

Thoughts:

1. universities are moving away from hiring tenure-track teachers. (US trend. At least 40% Tenure Track vs 60% adjunct. Moving in the direction of even more adjuncts.)

2. tuba studios are not likely to make up a full teaching load. You are more likely to get hired as an Athletic-Band Director who also teaches tuba than as a full-time tuba teacher.

3. a university that is large enough to have a full studio of tuba players is going to hire a "name" player to fill the teaching position. Likely a person leaving a major symphony gig.

4. if your resume does not include professional teaching at the college level, you are unlikely to receive consideration for open college positions. A DMA with no experience will not help you in the job search.

5. if you have won or placed in some major competitions (or held a full-time orchestral position), your credentials might receive closer scrutiny.

disclaimer: Personal seller of said degrees. After working in many levels of higher education as an adjunct, guest professor, tenured professor, and administrator, the trends are pretty clear. I am up front with students interested in degrees in music. Being a lifelong student is the reason I am in this field to begin with.

Studying music as its own pursuit is a worthwhile goal for some people. It is up to that person to make their own living, often as an entrepreneur. The best musicians usually find a way to make things work (sometimes this even involves a focus on playing and teaching for money.)

Mudman wrote:DMA for tuba players: only worth it if the degree is free, and you are doing it for the sheer pleasure of studying music.
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Studying music as its own pursuit is a worthwhile goal for some people. It is up to that person to make their own living, often as an entrepreneur. The best musicians usually find a way to make things work (sometimes this even involves a focus on playing and teaching for money.)

I can see where you're coming from. I tell anybody that is out to get their graduate degree that it should be paid for at least partially, but I know I will likely personally have to incur at least bit more loan debt to get that doctorate. I would love to keep studying music because I thrive on being busy and challenging my mind with new ideas, but the last year of my master's was really stressful, and turned me off school for a while. Now I'm bored, so I guess I can't be happy with anything

I could potentially make a better living teaching lessons if I was in a larger population area. When I moved to where I currently live I called EVERY band director in the area and personally met with a few of them and only got one sporradic trombone lesson out of it, and she stopped taking lessons after about three months. Definitely not worth my effort. Tis a tough world out here and maybe going back to the cozy and sheltered womb of academia is what I need right now.

Many years ago Harvey Phillips recommended that anything beyond a masters should be a "real world" degree such as a business degree.

It is a cold, cruel world which is likely to get harder rather than easier. In a weak economy the arts, including in the academic sphere tend to suffer as national economic priorities shift more toward survival over pleasure.

It might be wise to prepare by establishing an alternate survival mechanism earlier, rather than later - possibly too late.

Alternate survival mechanism: Years of experience in the service industry and the willingness to do almost any kind of work. Not a career, but I can survive-I've proved it for a few years now but the no health insurance thing is pretty troubling.

I don't want a Dr. in front of my name if all it means is a warm fuzzy feeling and more useless, but finely honed, skills.

bloke wrote:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53994

Why not? Reasonably inexpensive, convenient, and you might actually learn something.

http://www.bu.edu/online/programs/gradu ... education/

A masters with 18 hours in the field will allow you to teach undergraduates. In light of the trend away from tenure track budget lines, especially in the humanities, going beyond that required level is a bet you can probably afford to defer making. Why don't you see about about getting a gig off the tenure track based on what you've already done (which may involve moving). If the DMA is worthwhile in order to make progress in your career, that will become clear.

But if you want to take the plunge, be sure to do it knowing you'll be a TA if you can. Money is much better than no money.

I'm afraid the time is past for going into doctoral programs on spec or as a gentleman's sport.

I'm in a similar boat as you about to complete my MM in conducting with the hope to get a doctoral degree. At the advice of my advisor I'm hoping to be admitted to a PhD music ed program rather than another "performance" DMA degree. My goal is either the DOB at a small school where I can work with the concert & athletic bands and still have my hands in some of the academic classes or as an associate DOB at a regional university overseeing the 2nd (or 3rd) concert band and the athletic bands. My thought, agreeing with my advisor, is that the MM in conducting and the PhD will compliment each other and make me more marketable in this competitive field. It will be a few more years before I truly find out if this is the real case, but it's worth a shot.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Why not? Reasonably inexpensive, convenient, and you might actually learn something.

http://www.bu.edu/online/programs/gradu ... education/

I seriously looked into that a while ago. Nothing but writing papers. Would give you a degree, but I question the real world value for a real world band director (most of what is needed for that position is not learned by writing papers).

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Missouri wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote:

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Why not? Reasonably inexpensive, convenient, and you might actually learn something.

http://www.bu.edu/online/programs/gradu ... education/

I seriously looked into that a while ago. Nothing but writing papers. Would give you a degree, but I question the real world value for a real world band director (most of what is needed for that position is not learned by writing papers).

King2ba might be able to answer my question because he is an expert on this field, but I will ask it on here. I was always told a DMA is more of a skills based degree that often has recitals, conducting requirements for conductors, or compositions sometimes requiring a final project. I was always told a Ph.D was more of an academic degree, usually requiring significant original research, papers instead of recitals (performing, conducting, composition).

I checked one of the schools in my state that has a doctoral program (http://music.missouri.edu/graduate/phd.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) and lists music education as a Ph.D. Would the DMA versus a Ph.D make a difference in applying for a job and for tenure and promotions in the music education field? What is the real difference in the nomenclature?

So what you're saying is that you have a Ph.D., right? (No problem, I do too, and mine isn't from Missouri, or even Kentucky, for that matter. It doesn't make either of us a better person, or give us a right to be a jerk.)

Missouri wrote:I am interested in the differences between the degrees, and if a DMA in music education will look less favored than a Ph.D if applying for a college professorship.

The answer to that will depend pretty much on the field the job is in. For professorships in applied instrumental performance, the D.M.A. is the terminal degree, which is what really matters, when something beyond the masters with 18 hours in the field is required.

Just my 2 cents, but if you are going to continue in the music world the only place a Doctorate is needed is for a college teaching position. Any other place it will not matter.

BVD Press wrote:Just my 2 cents, but if you are going to continue in the music world the only place a Doctorate is needed is for a college teaching position. Any other place it will not matter.

Even there it may not be necessary, if you're good enough, and have the right other jobs or experience to justify it. I can think of a college teaching position (in applied tuba) occupied today by person with nothing more than a bachelor's degree, as far as I know. That is extraordinary and no one should make a life plan that depends on doing the same. Normally, the master's with 18 hours in the field is the minimum for teaching undergraduates. But it is not impossible with less.

I'm about to graduate with mine from LSU in Baton Rouge.

I wouldn't change my decision to get a DMA. I was teaching adjunct and every time I applied for a better job I kept hearing the same line: your portfolio is great, but you don't have a doctorate. So, I decided to get one. Now, I'm graduating, my playing is at a higher level than it has ever been, I have grown as an individual and as a thinker, and I've found new ways to incorporate the tuba into my interests that are not necessarily musical.

Through completing my DMA, and serving as a TA, I've become a better teacher. I've become a better performer. I've read a ton of books about music, the science behind music, the body's psychological response to music, thoughts on being a teaching artist, and other topics relating to music. Through my university's requirement of a minor, I've opened new doors into experimental music, digital media, and exploring the cutting edge relationship between technology and musical performance.

I've also worked at a bike shop for the last 4 years.

I exit my DMA with all of these various experiences and skill sets. I don't have a teaching job, which is ultimately what I would like to do. But, I am curating an experimental music series, collaborating with visual artists on improvisatory performances, freelancing in my region, teaching private lessons to HS students in the area, working marching band camps and serving as low brass tech for high schools, and working at the bike shop. Overall, I'm pretty satisfied with my artistic output as well as my monetary income. For now. Things will change, and I'll have my turn at teaching job again. Until then, I'm good where I am.

I think that if you approach your DMA as the time that you prepare yourself for your future, and have a teacher that will support you and assist you in making you as consumate a professional in all those various arenas of your perceived professional self, then it is worth it. You will come out ahead. If you're just gonna go back to college and spend three years doing recitals and playing in quintets and expect to get a teaching job out of it, then don't waste your time. You won't be near competitive enough.

Missouri wrote:

MartyNeilan wrote:

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:Why not? Reasonably inexpensive, convenient, and you might actually learn something.

http://www.bu.edu/online/programs/gradu ... education/

I seriously looked into that a while ago. Nothing but writing papers. Would give you a degree, but I question the real world value for a real world band director (most of what is needed for that position is not learned by writing papers).

King2ba might be able to answer my question because he is an expert on this field, but I will ask it on here. I was always told a DMA is more of a skills based degree that often has recitals, conducting requirements for conductors, or compositions sometimes requiring a final project. I was always told a Ph.D was more of an academic degree, usually requiring significant original research, papers instead of recitals (performing, conducting, composition).

I checked one of the schools in my state that has a doctoral program (http://music.missouri.edu/graduate/phd.html" target="_blank" target="_blank) and lists music education as a Ph.D. Would the DMA versus a Ph.D make a difference in applying for a job and for tenure and promotions in the music education field? What is the real difference in the nomenclature?

A DMA is the terminal degree for those in a music performance curriculum. A PHD is generally for those not in a music performance curriculum. DMAs go to those in brass performance, percussion performance, etc. PHDs go to those in composition, ethnomusicology, musicology, music theory, music education, etc.

At my university, PHDs do require a final document, of significant scope, that contributes to the original research of the field. It is generally the result of extensive research, which varies based on the field. Composition students typically are required to write a piece, also of significant scope, and arrange a performance of the work.

DMA students are also required to do a final document. It can be one of two options:
1) a DMA monograph, which is similar to a PHD dissertation in the expected rigorousness of the research, but of much more limited scope. This type of document may be as few as 100 pages or so.
2) a DMA lecture recital with accompanying document. Exactly as it sounds, this option requires a public presentation of the research that is conducted by the student. The accompanying document is basically a much more detailed version of the watered down lecture recital. The recital itself is comprised of a lecture portion followed by a performance of some or all of the music being discussed in the document.

That's how I understand it, based on my experience in the degrees at my university.

LARSONTUBA wrote: A DMA is the terminal degree for those in a music performance curriculum. A PHD is generally for those not in a music performance curriculum. DMAs go to those in brass performance, percussion performance, etc. PHDs go to those in composition, ethnomusicology, musicology, music theory, music education, etc.

Composition is a pit more peculiar than other the other music specialties. Some consider it more of a theoretical discipline, others more performance oriented. Either a PhD or a DMA is offered depending on the institution. Practically it makes sense for composers to get a strong theoretical background as they often teach theory at a university.
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To the OP, have you read this article:
http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-S ... -the/44846" target="_blank" target="_blank

bloke wrote:These days, I don't see a whole bunch of (other than medical) "doctors" out in the private sector.

Mostly, those who are working in the fields in which their degrees were rewarded seem to be employed by institutions which sell degrees.

Have any stats?

While your point probably holds true for degrees in humanities, social sciences and natural sciences have many opportunities to work in private sector.

bloke wrote:These days, I don't see a whole bunch of (other than medical) "doctors" out in the private sector.

I think it depends on the sector.

It would appear to me that playing a couple of tunes at a hooding would certainly allow you to form a valid personal opinion as to the usefullness of an advanced degree.