what does 24AW stand for?

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what does 24AW stand for?

Post by dsfinley »

I got to wondering today. What does the AW in a 24AW mouthpiece stand for? If it stands for anything.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Euphtub »

A cup
Wide rim

Here you go: http://www.bachbrass.com/pdf/AV6001%20B ... Manual.pdf" target="_blank

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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Alex C »

A is the letter used to signify Bach's deepest mouthpiece depth.
W is the letter used to signify a wide rim
24... I don't know what that means.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by dsfinley »

Ohhh ok. I always thought it meant a waste of money! :D
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by peter birch »

I always assumed that that the number was just a catalogue number and the letters descriptors as mentioned above.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by TubaRay »

In the Bach system, I believe the number is in relation to the cup diameter. The higher the number = the smaller the diameter. As for 24AW standing for a waste of money, I would agree, however I am certain many on this board would disagree with that.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by eupher61 »

I have wondered why the tuba mouthpiece numbering is opposite thst of other Bach products. No answer has been suggested.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by GC »

eupher61 wrote:I have wondered why the tuba mouthpiece numbering is opposite thst of other Bach products. No answer has been suggested.
Opposite how? Larger number, smaller diameter; smaller number, larger diameter. It works that way for trumpets, trombone/euph, and tuba.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by TubaRay »

tstryk wrote:
TubaRay wrote: As for 24AW standing for a waste of money, I would agree,
I think John Fletcher made some mighty good sounds with one!
..as he could have done with practically any mouthpiece available to him. Furthermore, if you wish to quibble with my statement, please read the rest of my post.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Ace »

bloke wrote:
dsfinley wrote:Ohhh ok. I always thought it meant a waste of money! :D
As goofy as these are, many of our bad-teeth across-the-pond cousins find ways to force them to make nice sounds.
I had trouble with the low range on the 24AW, but that was just my own deficiencies as a player. Apparently, the 24AW is not universally reviled. A 24AW was packed with some new horns I've owned such as the Meinl Weston 2145 CC and the Cerveny 601-5MR CC.

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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by tofu »

TubaRay wrote:
tstryk wrote:
TubaRay wrote: As for 24AW standing for a waste of money, I would agree,
I think John Fletcher made some mighty good sounds with one!
..as he could have done with practically any mouthpiece available to him.
Sure Fletch could have made anything sound great, but most great players I know also don't go out of their way to play any old piece of garbage just to make their lives more challenging. Fletcher had other choices available, even within the Bach mouthpiece lineup and yet he chose this. I also find most great players have a pretty good understanding of what works for a given situation so I would guess this wasn't some random choice by him. I got one that came with a horn I bought. It worked well for that horn, but I found two others that work better for me. Many excellent British players use it today. They certainly have choices and yet they continue in many cases to play this. I'm guessing they don't pick it just to make their playing more of a challenge or because of some cultural norm.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Wyvern »

Mouthpiece choice is very personal, but the 24AW seems a good match for the compensated EEb tuba favoured in the UK. Many great players use. I am sure John Fletcher wrote somewhere that he found it the mouthpiece best suited to him.

It is the recommended tuba mouthpiece in some UK conservatoires.

I used one for many years and it does provide a rich, full tone with the EEb that very few other mouthpieces provide - although I do find it a bit small for me now.

I have not got a clue where the number 24 came from.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Art Hovey »

I'm pretty sure that the "AW" describes the rim as "Awful Wide".
The "24" is code for "too small for a BBb tuba, but about right for an E-flat".
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by modelerdc »

This should be in the FAQ. Bach mouthpieces use a small number for larger rim sizes and a larger number for smaller rim sizes. Also true but less obvious is that odd numbers are for flatter rims and even numbers are for rounder rims. A is a deep cup, no letter is standard deepth, C, D, and E cups progresivaly shallower. This system is more evident for Bach trombone, and trumpet mouthpieces where there are more models. The G cup is only for bass trombone, and I have seen some Mount Vernon F cups for bass trombone. So for tuba the largest Bach mpc I've seen is the 7, and the smallest is the 32E. The 24AW is a little larger than the Bach 22, and a little bigger than the Bach 25. The W means a wide cushion rim. The A means a deep cup. I also have a Bach 24W, like a 24AW but standard deepth. The 24AW is one of the most widely used mpcs even if it has totally fallen out of favor in the US for advanced players. It is well sized for begginers, adult amatuers who don't practice a lot, and is a very good size for the E flat tuba. It is a paradox of balence, small rim diameter but large cup equal easy full sound. It is the opposite balence as the west coast tuba school of very large rim diameter but a cup not too deep for brillant high range, the large diameter making the low range easy, and an extended high range possible with the shallow cup, and the total area of the cup reasonable for a big sound. I feel the 24W works really well with the E flat, but the 24AW helps to give a fatter low range on the E flat tuba, and as well as when this small mouthpiece is use on the BB flat tuba. I wish Bach made these with a normal rim! I'm not the only one tired of hearing these mouthpieces trashed just becuase they don't suite you. Can't well all use what mpc works for us, and still get along? BTW, Fletcher used the Helleberg "lucky boy" on his Holton CC and it worked better for him on that horn that the 24AW, when I meet him in the late 1970's he was still using a 24AW as his main mpc on the Besson E flat. Asked why he didn't use a Wick mpc, he said he tried but they hurt his lips.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by GC »

@modelerdc: Sorry, but no. The Bach 22 is slightly larger than the 24AW, by a whopping 1/4mm. Bach numbers are a progression of cup diameters, and larger numbers are smaller sizes while smaller numbers are larger sizes. The W is for a wide rim. A is the deepest cup, E (as in the rarely seen 32E) is the shallowest cup. All of this information is in the Bach catalog and on the various mouthpiece comparison charts. The numbers to not relate to the rims as such, and there is a lot of variation in them (and many changes over time).
Last edited by GC on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Ace »

tstryk wrote:I don't get the Bach bashing. Someone commented in another thread that a bach 18 was a beginner mouthpiece. I have played an old Mt. Vernon 18 for 35 years and made a lot of money using it. I understand that Ron Bishop played an 18. Bach is just as good or better than 98% of the stuff on the market. Gimme a break!
This is from memory, but I think Jay Bertolet, a pro player in Florida, has sometimes used a Bach 18 in his work.

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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Donn »

Is there a bad mouthpiece? I mean, marketed as a tuba mouthpiece and conveniently available for purchase.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Jay Bertolet »

Ace wrote:This is from memory, but I think Jay Bertolet, a pro player in Florida, has sometimes used a Bach 18 in his work.

Ace
Correct! I think the Bach 18 is a wonderful mouthpiece. With any student I teach who is looking for a mouthpiece that suits them, and they are playing on an instrument with a comparably long leadpipe (like most rotary valve horns), I always suggest a Bach 18 as the starting point for their search. Not only is it an excellent mouthpiece, it also seems to fall near the middle of all the comparable mouthpieces. If the 18 doesn't work out, the student usually has good information with which to make another choice closer to what they need (larger, smaller, deeper, shallower, etc.).

I still use an 18 on my RM-10 CC. It's a great combo. I don't know if Mike Finn has changed his designs since we last spoke, but he made a mouthpiece for me that he called a Mike Finn #2 that is basically a Bach 18 but in true heavyweight style, very similar to the R&S line. I found that setup to be absolutely wonderful for the outdoor gigs that I occasionally play.

I have been watching with some interest all the recent talk on this board about which mouthpiece or tuba is good/better/best. I sincerely hope that people realize that there is no real way to establish this except empirically for each individual because everybody plays differently. No two people are the same so the equipment will not respond exactly the same way to any two people. Anyone looking for a horn for themselves should try everything. There is just no way to know which horn will be the best match for a given person. Sure, look at horn sizes, sound quality, ergonomics, and other considerations. But keep an open mind and do your homework. You only do a disservice to yourself if you don't explore every option. Everyone's goal is to find that greatest match for themselves. Why not make every attempt to assess everything available?

The road is long and hard. Horns, mouthpieces, daily routines, teachers, auditions, it can all be very overwhelming. In such a competitive business, it is foolish to not equip yourself with the very best equipment for you. Making every effort to do that might be the best thing you can do to further your career.
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by Kevin Hendrick »

modelerdc wrote:... I also have a Bach 24W, like a 24AW but standard deepth. The 24AW is one of the most widely used mpcs even if it has totally fallen out of favor in the US for advanced players. It is well sized for begginers, adult amatuers who don't practice a lot, and is a very good size for the E flat tuba. It is a paradox of balence, small rim diameter but large cup equal easy full sound. It is the opposite balence as the west coast tuba school of very large rim diameter but a cup not too deep for brillant high range, the large diameter making the low range easy, and an extended high range possible with the shallow cup, and the total area of the cup reasonable for a big sound. I feel the 24W works really well with the E flat, but the 24AW helps to give a fatter low range on the E flat tuba, and as well as when this small mouthpiece is use on the BB flat tuba. I wish Bach made these with a normal rim!
I bought a 24W a few years ago -- nice 'piece! It would be better with a narrower, flatter rim -- a 30E-ish width-and-profile would be nice -- but it works well enough as-is. :tuba:
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Re: what does 24AW stand for?

Post by patricklugo »

i use the Bach 18 with my Rudolf Meinl CC with great result.
for years, i tried several mouthpieces. for some reason, i was not happy with any of them.
until i started working with my current teacher, (Jay Bertolet) i decided to give it a chance. i am really happy with my tuba combo set up now.

ironically my first tuba mpc was a Bach 18. i switched over to a Conn Helleberg because i felt the Bach 18 was too vanilla and since i used to move my emouchure alot.
i always had blisters on my mouth due to the high stress i put on my embouchure. for that reason i always tried to find bigger mouthpieces to avoid the problem.

now that i am learning the correct techniques. i dont have that problem with the Bach 18 and i really like the sound.

the Bach 18 is great mouthpiece for any type of player beginnger or advanced.
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