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I've been considering trying a large bass tuba in place of a contrabass and bass tuba. It seems like the socially acceptable way to do this is with an Eb, although some people get by with only F tubas.

On the surface, the difference between Eb and F seems small, just a whole step, right? BBb to CC is a minor difference that we all argue about, but Eb and F seems to get less attention...which leaves me wondering how big the differences really are.

Some other differences I've already considered:
-- Different "funky notes" (I'm not worried about that though)
-- Cost (Eb is cheaper)
-- Style (I like rotary tubas, and there are many more F's than Eb's... and also top-action is a no-go for me, I've never been comfortable with it)
-- Sound (Eb is a bit "fuller" than F)

Either of these would work for my current and perceived future playing commitments, I just want to try something a little different.

You're not getting rid of your 188 are you?

Sorry, I am of no help in regards to your OP. Best of luck though!

I own a few small (621 sized) Eb's and play a large piston F frequently. Even though it's a bigger horn the Eb's have more weight to the sound. It took me a while to get used to the sound coming out of the bell especially since it looks more of what I picture an Eb looking like vs. an F. Generally, I prefer small F's and any size Eb, to the point where I'd consider having a small F and a large Eb as a pair. Small and large Eb's together don't really work for me (been there!).

Re: rotary, the only big name rotary Eb's I've played have been the Miraphones. The big one is better in this regard, but I still find the rotary Firebird to be freer blowing.

Tubajug wrote:You're not getting rid of your 188 are you?

You know, I even thought about clarifying that in the original post... the 188 isn't going anywhere any time soon.

I recently sold my Cerveny F tuba, and miss having something else to play on. It was a fun little horn, but physically it wasn't a good match for me so I didn't use it very much. Something physically larger seems like it would be more useful and just as fun.

First, I'm biased. I do play an Eb and use it for everything. A 4 valved horn can easily go as low as a 3 valve BBb and you should be able to go an octave higher. If you are stuck on rotary valves, Miraphone is your best choice (in my opinion). If you would consider a piston horn, Kanstul should be considered. Which horn you consider depends on what you are doing with it. I think you will do well with an Eb in almost all situations, except maybe a large orchestra setting.

imo, the horns shape/design has a lot more to do with "fullness" or necessary number of valves than the key of the instrument does.

KiltieTuba wrote: A 5 valve Eb seems to be the all-around workhorse.

Or a good compensating 4-valve. (Like the one bloke is selling . . .)

I think my "no top action" rule would seriously limit my Eb choices. I have just never been comfortable with that setup. I am curious to try a Meinl 2040/5, though they are not common at all...

When you said:

bort wrote:I've been considering trying a large bass tuba in place of a contrabass and bass tuba.

that's what got me worried... Good to hear it's not going anywhere!

Yeah, I realize my original post was a little unclear. Whoops!

I think the main idea is that I want to try something different and see where it takes me.

For 23 years, I did everything on F. I flirted with an Eb, had a BBb souzie and a cool-but-unusable BBb concert horn, but the F did it all for me. I didn't play big orchestra stuff very often, but subbing with a local orchestra (whatever the step below the ROPA is, AFofM affiliated but no CBA) I had no problems with everything from Finlandia to Grand Canyon Suite. B&S PT 10, right hand 5th valve as a long whole step. "THE Dent" certainly helps.

With the Martin coming a year ago, that's no longer necessary. Doing the Wagner last year, I played the first rehearsal on F, then brought the BBb in afterwards just as a curiosity. Despite a very low pit ceiling, there was no contest, the BBb was the sound. I could go to a bigger mouthpiece on the F and get close, but it's easier and more fun on the BBb...playing "The Ride" on F can be done, but it's a PITA.

Bort, To meet your criteria, I would suggest a Miraphone Norwegian Star should be what you check out.

No F is truly a 'do-it-all' tuba, but I believe you could on the Star.

The 2040/5 has a great sound and plays well, but IMHO has two things against it;

1) The ergonomics are nowhere near so good as the Star (it is top heavy)

2) For me it has a very 'difficult' E above the staff (I used to dread playing anything with high E on that tuba as would split, as often as not)

I sold my last CC several years ago and now only have my Besson 983 Eb. I could have kept either, but I prefer having better all around flexibility and an easier high register to a darker sound and a better low register.

Depends a lot on what most of your playing will focus on (BQ/lessons/orch/etc)...

I play on a Willson 3400 and love it. I take it to alot of gigs (mostly cause im lazy) and dont want to carry a large horn around. I have seen several players play on a large Yamaha F as their all around horn. I think a good design tends to fair better than key as far as playability in some situations. Eb or F I think with a good player and horn setup yo could play on a small tuba if you needed to.

I've never played Eb but have always been impressed by their clarity and depth; however, I wonder how a tubist can live with a tuba that can't play a spot-on, clear-and-easy low E? (and on many Eb's the same is true about the low F).

The majority of tuba repertoire won't take us lower than a low E. A lot of music will require a low E to be played effortlessly.

The low E on most Eb tubas I've heard are sharp and stuffy (on 4 bangers). When played as a privileged note it often doesn't cut through.

Of coarse there are always exceptions, but the Eb tuba seems to me to be a curious instrument choice when one or possibly two of the bread-and-butter notes are of a questionable quality. You can't very well just turn to the audience and apologize for the sharp low E because its a bad note on the horn!

Or do the majority of Eb's have fantastic low E's (and F's) and I've just been misfortunate in my experience?

-Pat

I'm glad someone else mentioned the Willson Eb. That horn truly is a do it all horn. They are pricey but you get your money's worth. I've been stuck playing that horn on orchestral works where I clearly would have normally been playing something much bigger but didn't want to bring a second horn for just one piece. It always surprises me and the listeners.

pjv wrote:I've never played Eb but have always been impressed by their clarity and depth; however, I wonder how a tubist can live with a tuba that can't play a spot-on, clear-and-easy low E? (and on many Eb's the same is true about the low F).

The majority of tuba repertoire won't take us lower than a low E. A lot of music will require a low E to be played effortlessly.

The low E on most Eb tubas I've heard are sharp and stuffy (on 4 bangers). When played as a privileged note it often doesn't cut through.

Of coarse there are always exceptions, but the Eb tuba seems to me to be a curious instrument choice when one or possibly two of the bread-and-butter notes are of a questionable quality. You can't very well just turn to the audience and apologize for the sharp low E because its a bad note on the horn!

Or do the majority of Eb's have fantastic low E's (and F's) and I've just been misfortunate in my experience?

-Pat

You should try a compensated Eb! No problem on low F, or E. I have just checked on my Wessex Eb and both notes are spot in tune.

It is the flexibility of the compensated Eb which makes it the 'do-it-all' tuba in the UK with the left hand operated 4th valve meaning it is as easy to move around fast in the low register as on a BBb.

Jay Bertolet wrote:I'm glad someone else mentioned the Willson Eb. That horn truly is a do it all horn. They are pricey but you get your money's worth. I've been stuck playing that horn on orchestral works where I clearly would have normally been playing something much bigger but didn't want to bring a second horn for just one piece. It always surprises me and the listeners.

I've tried the Willson F and was impressed. Are the two more similar than they are different?

bort wrote:I've tried the Willson F and was impressed. Are the two more similar than they are different?

IMO, yes. I didn't ever buy one because I was already playing Eb for a very long time when the Willson F came along. The ones I played were so similar to the Eb, I never felt the desire to buy an F and learn F fingerings seriously. There really wasn't any advantage to it because the horns played so similarly. I'm sure part of my opinion is based on my preference for 5 valve, non-compensating instruments. I once owned a Boosey Sovereign Eb that was an incredible sounding horn but, not having grown up in the 3+1 tradition, I found the technique of that valve configuration difficult to truly master. I've always been kinda clumsy so maybe using both hands for valve manipulation is just not for me. Now that I think about it, I also never really liked F tubas that used left hand 5th and/or 6th valves. I even had my 184 CC 5th valve converted to right thumb usage (thanks Lee Stofer, that horn still rocks!).

Thanks!

Does Willson make a large rotary F tuba? I only see the small rotary F on their site. I'm not quite on a Willson budget right now, but still curious to learn more. Who sells these in the US now, anyway??