TubeNet

So I visit the tubenet, almost daily, and every blue moon or so, I see someone talking about Thein tubas. Yesterday I finally got tired of not knowing what they were, and looked them up. These things are like 35,000 USD. I'm not interested in these, at all, because the price is like something out of a horror movie, but what I am interested in is why these tubas are almost double the price of a York Copy, and what makes them so expensive.

So this post is just about getting some insight on these tubas, if you've played one, or heard anyone play one, other than the video from the late 80s of Hendrick Renes playing the Vaughan Williams on(which sounded absolutely amazing! If you haven't heard it, you need to, a definite worthy video to spend 15 minutes listening to.) let me know, I'd love to get some responses about this incredibly expensive tubas.

Thank you in advance!

I played the F tuba they built in 2010 as it was being pieced together and then in its final form. While the horn sounded nice, responded well in all registers, and was ergonomically comfortable, it didn't do anything that a tuba a third of its price, or less, could do. It would not make me sell my horns and a car to purchase it.

Thein has a very specialized market and they mainly target orchestras for their sales. An orchestra will buy a section of trumpets, trombones, horns, or a tuba. The trumpets and trombones are modular in construction and can be matched to any combination of player or conductor tastes, hall requirements, style of music, or which way their hair grows. This costs lots of money! Is it worth it? Enough players think so and they are still filling orders.

Max and Heinrich are wonderful gentlemen and very hospitable, even if you just stop by to say hello. They aim to please every customer and go to great lengths to do so, but one will pay for their expertise and attention to detail. If you're ever in Bremen, stop by the shop for a tour. They love to show off their craftsmanship.

There's quite a bit of voodoo in what they charge for. If someone comes back with complaints about one of their axes, they start soldering small bits of brass on various places on the instrument, even claiming to solve intonation issues this way. Each bit of brass regularly costs anywhere from €200 to €1000.

KiltieTuba wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:...soldering small bits of brass on various places on the instrument, even claiming to solve intonation issues this way. ...

So you're of the opinion that instruments don't have nodes and anti-nodes?

I didn't say that.

KiltieTuba wrote:If the bracing can affect the sound/intonation (say, taking the bell brace off of a sousaphone), why can't "small bits of brass" do the same to fix those bad pitches?

I question whether "small bits of brass" soldered anywhere on a brass instrument can substantially affect intonation. You seem to be a true believer though.

KiltieTuba wrote:Think of it like those Adams euphoniums (I hope it's them) that you can have all in the same THICKNESS of brass, or the heavy bracing/extreme bracing that Monette and other boutique trumpet manufacturers use to change the sound, or the effect of hefty tuba mouthpieces (a la Maximus, LOUD, Helleberg-variants, etc.) compared to the normal tuba mouthpiece.

I think Lee Stofer said that the bracing on those old Conn Monster Eb tubas was iffy, such that moving a couple braces would improve the sound considerably.

Now you're talking about "small bits of brass" changing the sound. An entirely different topic.

chhite wrote: Thein has a very specialized market and they mainly target orchestras for their sales. An orchestra will buy a section of trumpets, trombones, horns, or a tuba.

I have never heard that. Makes sense though. Wonder what the price tag on a section of Thein brass instruments would be?

Didn't Schagerl put their name on a F tuba made by MW? The one with the zig zag rotor block? I always thought that was a strange move by Schagerl yet it makes sense if they were selling sets of instruments to various ensembles, did not want to tool up for a tuba but wanted their name on every bell in the group. It appears Thein sacked up and made their own.

With absolutely no knowledge of Thein's tubas I would like to make a guess:

They do not make a lot of the parts of their tubas. Me guesses a big chunk of those horns are made by the usual suspects, like most others (bells, valves). Would it make financial sense to develop different tuba bell mandrels to only sell a few horns?

I may be wrong. Please tell me if I am.

Another guess: The Eb pictured on their website is the only one ever made.

Cameron Gates wrote: With absolutely no knowledge of Thein's tubas I would like to make a guess:

They do not make a lot of the parts of their tubas. Me guesses a big chunk of those horns are made by the usual suspects, like most others (bells, valves). Would it make financial sense to develop different tuba bell mandrels to only sell a few horns?

I may be wrong. Please tell me if I am.

Nope. You're absolutely right. They buy components (bells, valve sets, etc.) from the same places everyone else does. They solder them together, add remedial "bits of brass" as needed, and charge a small fortune.

It's just like any other high-end or luxury item, like cars...

I appreciate all the comments, please keep them coming. Also, another topic for debate. I played a "Baer" Handmade today, and I was not a fan, I honestly like my CC tuba more, and I really put it through it's paces, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I say if you're gonna spend the money a "Baer" cost, then just go ahead and get the best tuba out there, in my opinion of course, and get Walter to make you a York Copy, anyone else have any comments on the MW "Baer" vs. the Yorks?

For what it's worth, the prices quoted on their web site do include 19% VAT which you wouldn't pay if you were buying outside Europe, so it's not quite as bad as it seems at first glance.

Pretty much ALL the German makers other than the B&S/Melton and Miraphone buy their valves and bells from one of a handful of sources. I don't see anyone complaining that Alexander doesn't make bells and valves.

I own a Thein bass trumpet and it's an absolute joy to play. Is it twice as good as the Alexander which is very similar and costs about half the price? No, of course not, but it is extremely good and I was lucky enough to get an amazing deal on a like-new used one. I've only seen a few of their instruments with the little brass "lumps" on them. I'm sure they put them there for a reason. I am certain that these alone would not affect intonation, however, by changing the response and feel and slotting of the instrument it often changes the way you play it, which can certainly affect intonation. I've experienced this with the Edwards Alessi trombone which has the little threaded rods that can screw in in a few different positions in the main brace. That, to me, felt like it affected intonation. I'm sure it didn't, but it can sure give you that impression.

Thein make really beautiful instruments. Absolutely flawless construction and extremely elegant design. I don't get the sense that they make an awful lot of tubas, but you have to give them props for having such a complete catalog.

bbocaner wrote: Pretty much ALL the German makers other than the B&S/Melton and Miraphone buy their valves and bells from one of a handful of sources. I don't see anyone complaining that Alexander doesn't make bells and valves.

Rudolf Meinl makes all his rotor valves and bells in his own shop. He only outsources his piston valves.

bbocaner wrote:...That, to me, felt like it affected intonation. I'm sure it didn't, but it can sure give you that impression.

Maybe I should have said "placebo" instead of "voodoo".

bloke wrote:There was a not-particularly impressive 6450 that keep being displayed at show-after-show. I have finally played better ones, and now understand why they are liked. That having been said, I like my homemade M-W 6/4 considerably more.

As Matt Walters says, (owner-wise) every tuba has someone's name on it.

very well said. If everyone liked the same horn there would only be one manufacturer and one model.

Only played one Thein instrument, a large Bb/Tenor trombone. It was exceptional in every possible respect.

Went down a rabbit hole this morning and finally took a look at this:

https://thein-blechblasinstrumente.de/0 ... ba-5pv.php" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Cameron Gates wrote: Another guess: The Eb pictured on their website is the only one ever made.

I have to believe this guess is still accurate. 3+2 piston valves with....is that a second valve slide kicker? It's been several years since this thread. Has anyone seen one of these in real life?

There is a Thein CC in Venezuela, in their national orchestra (or something like that... Keep the political system comments to myself). And one in the Netherlands with _____ (will have to come back and add his name later).

Otherwise, tubas are made to order, and there obviously aren't many orders.

I've played a Thein tuba mouthpiece for a few years now. Very nice. Expensive, but still less than Monette, and not much more than some other stateside options.

Always wondered about the 5V BBb or CC where the 5th valve was also a piston. I'm guessing copies of that horn are still in the single digits.

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:Always wondered about the 5V BBb or CC where the 5th valve was also a piston. I'm guessing copies of that horn are still in the single digits.

I had never seen that particular implementation of a 5th valve, until now. I guess you want a super consistent feel. Thein definietly seems to have some tubas that defy convention.

Regarding price, how much higher are they than say Hirsbrunner, another (now closed) bespoke instrument maker? I suspect the law of diminishing returns comes into play, however if you want something exactly how you want it, they can accommodate. That's what you're really paying for: that level of detail.

As of 2016, the Thein CC cost about 33,000 euro.

There is an E flat in Denmark in the National Theater /Opera House. The owner was kind enough to respond to my inquisitive e-mail about it. It's a few years back. He had played Besson and Hirsbrunner (I think,if not a 'brunner then something else not a Besson) but liked the Thein instrument much better. He thought the Besson was a bit of a point and squirt instrument and liked the ability to shape notes into position with the Thein.
Pointing and squirting has its place though. I had a Brunner E flat for a number of years .It had a glorious sound, absolutely the best and I used it in orchestras and ensembles to some acclaim but more and more of my playing was in bands where I had to play lots of notes . Therein lay the problem! The wonderful sound was offset by some poor tuning towards the middle and top which was manageable when playing slowly but became a problem when shovelling notes was required .It gradually became a nuisance to play and I traded it for a modern York which I still have . It plays well in tune and has a terrific sound . Better than just about every Besson which I have played .
It's a question of having the right horse for the right course.
PS-- this post may have drifted a little from it's original thrust . I spotted that whilst typing!

bloke wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:They solder them together, add remedial "bits of brass" as needed, and charge a small fortune.

Thein and Variations...