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Does the kind of mouthpiece you have matter when your enhancing/trying to play;

Louder(that's my main concern at the moment)
Aggressiver
Sounding harsh
Playing softer
Sound smooth
Play low
Playing high
Playing fast passages
Playing slow passages
Playing on Sousa or concert tuba

Does it matter? I need to know. I've seen so many posts about mouth pieces and all. Just want to know. And stuff about how Lm-12 is the loudest tuba mouth piece available. I just really need to know. Does it really matter. Could you play just as loud on any other mouth piece or even louder then the LM-12, and do the other things I listed just as fine. Opinions needed guys. Thanks!

Yes

Nice story indeed. And I thought so. The Lm-12 is so shallow and small that if it was any smaller it'd be a trumpet mouth piece. That's pretty d*** shallow to me. I think they're pretty hefty on the price tag aren't they?

Gonna play some Earth Wind & Fire stuff on a night club Tuesday.
The LM12 will be in the bag. Not saying it will be used, but funking down around EEb trying to sound like a bass guitarist violently hitting the strings it sure is a nice piece.

KiltieTuba wrote:Yes, the LM-12 will help you play louder. Think every dynamic being one dynamic louder with the same amount of air. It will also help you play low notes louder. You can also play really AWFUL with this mouthpiece. It can do all the things you've listed.

This is such a patently false statement, it is laughable. More accurately, unless this person knows everything about the original poster, I don't see any way this claim can be made. Even then, I have plenty of students that I know a great deal about their playing yet I could never make this claim for any mouthpiece for any of my students.

To the original poster: It is possible that you have a very bad mismatch between your current mouthpiece and the rest of your setup. Anything is possible. However, no mouthpiece is a magical element that, once plugged into your horn, will yield everything in your playing that you desire. My advice to you is to go take a lesson with a good teacher and start working on two fronts. First, start trying mouthpieces to find exactly what feels, sounds, and works best for you. This can be a very long process and everyone will try to tell you that what they are using is the best. None of that matters, focus on what's best for you. Second, start critically evaluating your playing and identify those elements of your playing that you're unhappy with. Devise ways to practice those specific things with the goal to improve your playing skills in those areas. Before long, you will see results as long as you work hard and be smart about it.

There is no magic out there, there is only good and bad combinations for you. Anyone who tells you different is selling snake oil.

Does it matter? Yes. Everything matters. Everything makes a difference.

The real question is does it make a noticeable difference. And of course, the answer to that question is,
"It depends."

I'm not trying to be a smart-***, even though I do live in Missouri; I'm just saying it like it is. Sometimes it does, other times it doesn't, depending on the player, horn, mouthpiece, repertoire, etc., in combination. I feel better with my Curry 128D on my upright bell, and my Kanstul custom on my recording bell of the very same tuba. My Kelly 18 does reasonably well on both, especially for outdoor concerts.

No mouthpiece is the magic answer. Find one that feels good, blows well with the tuba, helps you get a reasonable tonality and intonation, and stick with it.

I, too, confess to my own mouthpiece safari over the past years, as do other tuba players. But I borrowed a lot first and made notes as to what felt good and what didn't, and was able to narrow my scope considerably as a result. Then I asked for recommendations from folks who know such things for my primary mouthpiece, taking a frank inventory of my strengths as a tuba player, but more importantly, my weaknesses. Once the primary was resolved, I indulged in a few secondaries which serve me well. So, my current shelf lineup is:

#1) Curry 128D with the rim narrowed to Bach 18 contour for the upright bell;
#2) Kanstul custom 18 (my preferred cup i.d.);
#3) Kelly 18 for outdoor use;
#4) Bach 18 as a spare (and with its slightly larger throat works well for me for sustained higher register playing and the rare solo);
#5) G&W Taku Lite that is a reserve in case I am in a position to borrow a tuba, and I can go through all five to see what will work for the day. It's a little stuffy on my 186, but I'm hoping it will do well on an Eb tuba.
#6) Another Kelly 18 that, surprisingly, works on stuffy tubas but not on free blowing tubas, in contrast to #3 that seems to work better on my 186 and freer blowing tubas, but not on stuffy tubas. Go figure.

I'm considering an Eb tuba. Will I go on safari again? Probably. I've owned or had access to other tubas and sousaphones in the past. The mouthpieces that worked best for me on them did not work as well as the above on my 186, so when the horn went, so did the mouthpiece.

The key to a tuba mouthpiece safari is to first get a good horn, then try or borrow as many different mouthpieces as you can to see what feels the best, note their attributes, and then narrow the universe for models that have similar characteristics. For example, I like a Bach 18 style rim, 1.28 cup i.d., @.325 throat. The depth of cup and backbore are the variables I have to try with any particular horn to see if I like the way it feels, blows, and intonates.

After that, try to purchase used so if it doesn't work out you can flip it to the next person on safari for no, or very little, loss on the deal. I am lucky. My #1 and #2 I purchased new to order, and they have been what I needed. But only after I followed the above approach for a couple of years.

Here is a great comprehensive chart for mouthpieces sorted by cup i.d. Use it like a naturalist uses a field guide to get him into a good position to observe the species under study. Do not use it like an engineer's manual to fit mouthpiece A to tuba B.

http://www.allbrassradio.com/tubampccharts.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Doug Elliot has a great chart that also compares the cup depths as well.
David Werden also has a great chart that compares rims, throats, backbores and other criteria as well.

But no chart can precisely chart the cup geometry or how it will interact as the interface between, player, instrument and the music. So some trial is necessary.

Again, to the top: does it matter? Yes, or at least we all think it does, otherwise folks wouldn't be churning out new mouthpieces and mouthpiece designs? Does it make a noticable difference out front in playing? It depends on all the above, and more.

(Yes, Kelly now advertises a wider cup. But when I got mine, it was/is the 1.28.)

bloke wrote:Every mouthpiece is a compromise of factors and features.

Every player is at a different place along their journeys toward the (presumed) pursuit of excellence.

+5

I've tried the Loud mongo mouthpieces, and hated them. A giant cup and a monstrous backbore and throat have no resistance worth mentioning, and to me it felt like holding a vacuum cleaner hose to my mouth. I have to have a bit of resistance when I play to be able to control my tone. Total openness is my enemy. Your mileage will probably vary.

For whatever it's worth, the Loud had a very comfortable rim, just very big. I've seen other Louds that I like and may yet buy one.

I've heard a bunch of people use these pieces in high-volume situations, like big marching bands and drum corps, but I never thought the tone they gave was nearly as good as the users thought they were; low blare traded off for resonance and color.

Sheer volume of air is no substitute for tone. A good, resonant, color-filled tone will carry better, use less air, and give a sense of filling space with better sound than a big volume of wind with a weak tone behind it.

Thanks for the replies guys. Really nice. I had no idea most loud mouth pieces had no Resistance, hence why their so loud(pun intended). But I think it's safe to say depending in player skill you could beat a mouth pieces resistance by basically blowing huge columns of air at the same time? Correct? Correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks!

I'm not sure that the giant Loud mouthpieces I've tried were the LM-12 or something larger. I disliked them enough where I didn't pay much attention to the model. I have tried other Louds that I like, but again didn't pay much attention to the model numbers.

To me, the biggest component of resistance isn't the cup, it's the throat and backbore. Varying degrees of resistance come with the amount of air you put in, but there is also resistance inherent in the design.

I agree that the Loud 12 and their other large mouthpieces will let you play loudly, but you will get better results by concentrating on the quality of your tone than on the amount of air that you put through. The quality of the buzz is paramount, and you can learn to put more air behind it when your tone is what you want it to be.

I have heard a few people who use the Louds who sound absolutely great. If you've got the chops to handle one, by all means go for it. But I've heard too many people who sound washed-out and weak on them. A loud second-rate sound is no replacement for a less loud but excellent, resonant, colorful tone. If you can get that from the Loud 12, all the better.

Thanks for the replies the. Keep em coming! I read them everyday.

Anyways. Do y'all ever get that feeling that your not loud enough? Like do you feel your sound isn't carrying to the front from where your at certain times?

Regarding Bloke's comments and Jake's teaching, I'll make a couple comments. My point of view comes fro 3 years of study, not 1 or a handful of lessons.
Joe gets pretty close to the mark.

Hearing the correct pitch mentaly (as a result of good "ear traing") IS the starting point.

(EDIT INSERTED writing this on a phone leads to typos and requires brevity but, you should get the point.....)
"AIR" is what is used to physically drive the buzz - fuel.
Jake often lamented the fact that so much time had to be spent on remedial "breathing" work when tge MUSIC was the goal. Even then he felt many made to much of "air" while ignoring the importance of having a good mental concept of correct pitch and sound quality and good " musical ideas. Buzzing practice was advocated as the way of ensuring that the "musical product" was being manufactured correctly so that the instrument could do its job which, put simply, is to amplify the sound (buzz). AND, YES, adding resistance while buzzung was included when appropriate. Control if an EFFICIENT EMBOUCHURE was a goal.

It is fair to say that many people have somewhat distorted his teachings.

MY feeling is that FAR TOO MUCH has been made of him playing LOUD. He certainly could produce a BIG sound but his pianissimo was something few can match.

I had a LM12 for a while and couldn't get anywhere near the results everyone else seems to get. Since it was the most expensive mouthpiece I had I sold it and went back to my 18 and my "it's a backup because I have it somewhere" PT48. I don't really have any interest in trying any other mouthpieces, though I remember seeing a 48-like PT with a different style rim that was intriguing.

Tuboss2 wrote:Do y'all ever get that feeling that your not loud enough? Like do you feel your sound isn't carrying to the front from where your at certain times?

Never -- if anything, I have to be careful not to punch things too hard & stomp on the rest of the group. Playing softly is at least as important, and takes a lot of control (well worth working on).

Ken Herrick wrote:Jake often lamented the fact that so much time had to be spent on remedial "breathing" work when the MUSIC was the goal. Even then he felt many made too much of "air" while ignoring the importance of having a good mental concept of correct pitch and sound quality and good musical ideas. Buzzing practice was advocated as the way of ensuring that the "musical product" was being manufactured correctly so that the instrument could do its job which, put simply, is to amplify the sound (buzz). AND, YES, adding resistance while buzzing was included when appropriate. Control of an EFFICIENT EMBOUCHURE was a goal.

It is fair to say that many people have somewhat distorted his teachings.

MY feeling is that FAR TOO MUCH has been made of him playing LOUD. He certainly could produce a BIG sound but his pianissimo was something few can match.

+1

Grooving for Heaven wrote:It's times like this I wish I could locate my "Legacy of a master" book. I feel like re-reading it

"Song and Wind" is good too. I have both in the car.

I also highly recommend the "Portrait of an Artist" cd. Lots of good commentary from AJ on there as well as examples of him and the CSO brass playing.

snufflelufigus wrote:

goodgigs wrote:Hay boy, you know my opnion: It does matter - a little.
As long as your mouthpiece dosen't hurt your lips, it's good enough for now.
Worrie about an upgrade in like a year from now.
Why the hell do you want to play so god dam loud for anyway ?
(This is all he ever talks about)

'Cause maybe he wants to play in a Balkan brass band. Sometimes playing loud is the only way to cut through a band.
I've perfected the art of playing loud. The only thing is you can't play loud with a poo poo or t-ho t-ho orchestral tuba embouchure.
So there's one embouchure for extreme brass band playing and another for the back of an orchestra. Most guys aren't going to
be honest. It takes two embouchures to work as a tuba player today.

Thanks for the backup. I noticed something in class today. We're playing some peice, and I'm playing Middle G, and I had adjusted my lips a different away as I was about to play, just to experiment-the results were crazy. I had cut through like a freaking razor. For a second I was like 'Holy shi* what was that". I had took mental note of what position my lips were in to get that kind of sound. Another example was during warmups, I had purposely forced A LOT of air into my mouthpiece for my Low F, and much to my surprise-got a "What was that!!!?" look for my bandmates haha.

I guess after my mini experiment, Lip position and amount of air(obviously) matters. A LOT.

Forgot to say, I also logged into mental note that I'd only use that newly found style of playing for fanfares, solos(depending on what kind)c and show style music. I figured that kind of sound I produced today was really loud an edgy. More edgy then I've ever been able to produce in a while. So I gotta log that away for special occasions.

Speaking of Balkan style...link me some videos of this style?

I'm telling ya. That video you linked, holy shi* those people are loud. The tubas(I counted 4) sounding edgy as crap. I personally loved it. Their sound was really compact to me. That's fun to me. I wanna aim to be able to sound like that.

Gotta get my Sousa out and "experiment"

What did I miss?

There have been lots of perspectives on this from people much more expert than I, but in my opinion the player makes much more of a difference than whatever equipment they happen to be using. As far as I can tell, no matter what mouthpiece (or tuba) I use I sound like me. When I am playing in a group I need to constantly be conscious of holding back, because my sound can be too loud too easily. That is the case whether I am using my LM-6 or Kelly 25 mouthpiece. While I find different mouthpieces have an impact on how easy it is to play in tune across my range and some are more comfortable for me than others, they are not the deciding factor in how loud I play.