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Question for the TNFJ -- for people who spend their time playing in both band and orchestra, do you use the same tuba? Or do you prefer different tubas for different jobs? (Primarily talking style of tuba, not the BBb/CC question.)

The more I play, the more I think I like Miraphone 188 better in orchestra than band. And I liked the piston tubas I've owned (1291 and Marzan) better in band than orchestra. The 188 is certainly a capable tuba, and I've never had "trouble" supporting a group with it. Talking purely preference here.

So... anyone else out there use different tubas for different large ensembles?

Thanks!

bloke wrote:Isn't anyone's sound in a wind-band (unless a "true" wind ensemble) just a part of a "glob" of tuba sound?

Maybe it's supposed to be, but that's not been my experience. Over the last 10 years, I can only think of a handful of times that the band had an actual "section" of tubas. Most frequently, it has been me and one other person (ranging from novice to symphony pro), and many times it's been just me.

Thanks Joe.

I think most band conductors are just happy to hear separation between the notes (whatever form it comes in!).

Glob --- sad, but so often so true. It's one of the reasons I switched to Eb full-time (the main reason, though, is that Eb parts in brass band are just more interesting). One Eb or F tuba on the top can focus the sound of the tuba section; the brightness of tone is the great contributing factor. No more amorphous glob of low frequencies. Also, excessive octave-dropping can glob up the sound.

Getting a section together to have a slide-pull matching session can also un-glob the sound quite a bit. Unfortunately, some players get insulted by this.

Regarding the quarter note/eighth rest bit, most of the tubaists I play with lately make a distinct difference between that and the eighth/two eighth rests pattern, and it makes the sound much more elegant. Conductors who insist on short rhythmic notes everywhere are most of the problem; if they'd just allow the tubas (if they're a musically knowledgeable section) to act on their own instincts, they'd be better off.

[Totally off-topic: Firefox's spell checker underlined tubaists; when I right-clicked it to see its suggestions, the top one was "bassists".]

GC wrote:Glob --- sad, but so often so true. It's one of the reasons I switched to Eb full-time (the main reason, though, is that Eb parts in brass band are just more interesting). One Eb or F tuba on the top can focus the sound of the tuba section; the brightness of tone is the great contributing factor. No more amorphous glob of low frequencies. Also, excessive octave-dropping can glob up the sound.

Getting a section together to have a slide-pull matching session can also un-glob the sound quite a bit. Unfortunately, some players get insulted by this.

Regarding the quarter note/eighth rest bit, most of the tubaists I play with lately make a distinct difference between that and the eighth/two eighth rests pattern, and it makes the sound much more elegant. Conductors who insist on short rhythmic notes everywhere are most of the problem; if they'd just allow the tubas (if they're a musically knowledgeable section) to act on their own instincts, they'd be better off.

[Totally off-topic: Firefox's spell checker underlined tubaists; when I right-clicked it to see its suggestions, the top one was "bassists".]

I agree about conductors just leaving tubas alone at times. Many times conductors just go with short articulation as apposed to the true note because they always feel the sound is muddy. Most of the time they have no experience with tubas and just want it short to be sure it will keep time especially with marches. But you can tell a good conductor from a poor one when they blame problems with other sections on the tubas aspecially when other sections slow down the melody or dont tune and the tuba gets the blame. I recently played in rehearsal with a conductor who blamed me for bogging down the melody when I was not even playing.

I use my 981 (DW 3) for orchestra and community band (one of three tubas), and both conductors are happy with the tuba(s). Orchestra conductor loves the blend and color of the 981, "it's not just a bottom bass", and in community band I can really step on the gas in the outdoor performances and get a nice sound abd blend.

Adam

Asking myself, "What would Gene Pokorny do?"

bloke wrote:Isn't anyone's sound in a wind-band (unless a "true" wind ensemble) just a part of a "glob" of tuba sound?

I believe they call that "blend", sadly.

tank wrote:Many times conductors just go with short articulation as apposed to the true note because they always feel the sound is muddy

Also, they don't take the time to learn the actual march, and think that if they hear tuba notes over the "glob" then they must be dragging...

bloke wrote:Isn't anyone's sound in a wind-band (unless a "true" wind ensemble) just a part of a "glob" of tuba sound?

Done correctly, a tuba section does not sound like a "glob". I've had the benefit of playing in some decent wind ensembles (with Tuba sections of 4+) and the only time it sounded like a glob is when the guys aren't watching the conductor. I've also heard some other (not so disciplined) groups and it does indeed come out like a glob.

Same goes for marching band. I was section leader at NCSU for 2 years, 12 Sousas total while I was there. I had my guys on the beat and on pitch enough that it didn't goop up the sound to have everyone playing. It helps significantly that we memorized every piece. Unfortunately, until the pieces were memorized, some 'glob' was happening during group rehearsals. That glob sound is how I knew which pieces would need practice in sectionals...

If you ever have the chance to hear a top notch British Brass Band with 4-5 tubas, you'll only occasionally notice that it sounds like even 2 tubas, and it never sounds like a glob. And yes, I'm talking about sitting in on a practice session. They don't bring music to the stage until they're past that point.

ANYWAY... any more thoughts on the original question?

When I was at UIUC (especially the first couple years), practically the entire studio used a PT-6 for just about every large ensemble with good results.

If I were to play in an orchestra, I imagine I would do so on my tuba (as opposed to my euphonium).

bort wrote:ANYWAY... any more thoughts on the original question?

Before the 6/4 craze took over orchestral tubists, the tuba's job was often to "cut through" and a 184,185, small bell 186, 3/4 Rudy or similar did this job, with a 163 Alex at the big end of the scale. The tuba was more of a solo voice and about projection. The upright basses provided the deep foundation. Heck, even the original "wind ensembles" modeled more after an orchestral type of instrumentation used 1 or 2 upright basses to fill out the bottom.
The symphonic band was all about having that deep rich bass foundation coming from the tubas, and 20J's, 345's, and Martin 6/4's did an admirable job.
Fast forward to today, where orchestra players use large 5/4 or 6/4 tubas. It is a very different timbre than the orchestral tuba of a half century ago. The tuba is very much a part of the foundation of sound, as opposed to an independent projecting voice. Very similar to the old band style sound, just with more clarity (and hopefully better pitch).

NCSUSousa wrote:

bloke wrote:Isn't anyone's sound in a wind-band (unless a "true" wind ensemble) just a part of a "glob" of tuba sound?

Done correctly, a tuba section does not sound like a "glob". I've had the benefit of playing in some decent wind ensembles (with Tuba sections of 4+) and the only time it sounded like a glob is when the guys aren't watching the conductor. I've also heard some other (not so disciplined) groups and it does indeed come out like a glob.

Same goes for marching band. I was section leader at NCSU for 2 years, 12 Sousas total while I was there. I had my guys on the beat and on pitch enough that it didn't goop up the sound to have everyone playing. It helps significantly that we memorized every piece. Unfortunately, until the pieces were memorized, some 'glob' was happening during group rehearsals. That glob sound is how I knew which pieces would need practice in sectionals...

If you ever have the chance to hear a top notch British Brass Band with 4-5 tubas, you'll only occasionally notice that it sounds like even 2 tubas, and it never sounds like a glob. And yes, I'm talking about sitting in on a practice session. They don't bring music to the stage until they're past that point.

The primary reason for globhood, IMHO, is bad intonation. Going through a tuba section and tuning each valve slide consistently can do wonders, especially for players who don't never think to adjust their valve slides. Too many assume that tuning the bugle to one pitch is all that's needed. One of the most maddening things to me is a sousaphone section where every slide other than the main tuning slide is pushed all the way in (and where the director complains about their intonation but doesn't check the obvious).

And some folks get mad if you talk about getting together to check slide pulls: "What, you think I can't hear if I'm out of tune?" "Then why are all of your third valve notes a mile sharp from everyone else?" "@%$^*%@#!!!"

Well, I thought it was an interesting question.

I guess another thing here is to be careful what you bring to rehearsal... if you don't like it but the conductor loves it, you're screwed.

The tendency for tubas to seem more globular than other sections is all about that fact that so much depends on us.

In my main band, the clarinets are at least as prone to sounding like a glob as the tubas, because (a) there are so many of them, and (b) they're all over the map when it comes to things like note length and other matters of technique. But clarinets don't stand out in the total band sound like tubas do.

Well, to answer your original question, I only own one horn, so yes I would use the same horn. If money were no object and I could own as many horns as I wanted I don't think my answer would be any different. I don't think the symphonic sound is different between band and orchestra. Certainly show music, Dixie, and other styles call for a different concept and quality of sound. (Not that it's a poor quality, just different! Don't want to offend anyone!). But I don't really think there is much difference between the two.

Interestingly, three of the four tubaists in the community band I play in have CC tubas.

Habla, blah blah blah blah blah, espanol for my bunghole.

And then, a convenient 14 minutes later, bloke posts!

Too bad everyone knows you need at least 16 minutes to cover your tracks!

It wasn't me. I was busy watching Beverly Hillbillies on You Tube.