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It seems that current-production Sousaphones are all pretty similar in size: 26" bell, bore 0.68 to 0.73, meaning considerably smaller than a typical 4/4 tuba (more in line with a 3/4 tuba). Yet, before WW2, giant sousaphones were made (albeit not commonly), with 28 to 32" bells, and bores in the .75 to .77 range (depending on model).

In this day and age, what would be the point of owning one of those giants? I know about the Purdue one, and how it is used (mostly, it isn't). Which is sort of my point. If you are in a high school or college band, you probably will not march with the giant horn, it's more important to look like all the other sousaphones in the band. Certainly, the giant horn will sound "bigger" than its smaller cousins, exactly like a grand orchestral 5/4 or 6/4 BAT sounds bigger than a 3/4 student horn (and that's why the large ones are used in large ensembles). But for an individual player, who does not march with a large group of sousaphones, what would be the point of owning a giant sousaphone? If you're playing in a large ensemble (large band, symphony orchestra), you're probably not using a sousaphone but a regular tuba. And if you're in an ensemble where the use of a sousaphone is traditional (Dixieland, some jazz perhaps), the giant model is likely to overpower the ensemble.

Don't get me wrong ... this is not meant as a criticism of these wonderful giants. I'm sure my kid (who has only played regular tubas so far in his life, but will start playing sousaphones with his future high school marching band soon) would love to use the largest possible monster he can carry around, and he would be tickled pink to have access to a Conn 48K or a Martin Mammoth. But in practice, other than as a collectible and rarely used showpiece, do these big things still have a practical use? Do they sound significantly better or bigger? In a large sousaphone line (say 6 or 10 sousaphones), would adding one jumbo-size horn make a significant difference?

Never meant for marching. Sousa used giant Raincatcher Sousaphones for the same reasons BATs are used in a large orchestra. Giant/Jumbo Sousaphones were often seen in dance bands - it was easier for a doubler to switch back and forth between a string bass and a giant sousaphone played in a stand than picking up and putting down a tuba. They are for all intent and purpose just a BAT in a different wrap. Watch old '40's movies where they show a dance band and you will often see a large sousaphone in a stand being played on stage.

As a rising freshman in high school, I've come to despise the school Sousaphones (I'm also going to use my repair magic on high gear.) There is another king which is supposed to be better, but somebody locked it in a locker and left(graduated.) A bigger Sousaphone wouldn't be a problem, mabye even encouraged, if it played better than the other stuff.

These days... there is almost no practical use for giant sousaphones. As some musicians have already discovered, they are just too big and unwieldy for street use or marching.

As Tofu mentioned... these huge horns were developed during the ere when amplification was in it's infancy and being heard depended on how well the horn projected. The 'jumbo' sousaphones were often seen in dance bands and were sitting on stands... NOT being carried by the musician.

I am fortunate to own a Conn 48K (jumbo) sousaphone. It sits on a stand in my music room almost year 'round. I may take it out to a 4th of July concert this year. I hauled it to 'Windjammers' (circus music) a couple of years ago but set it up on a play stand and left it there for four days. The horn weighs 52 pounds and is not the sort of horn that I would want to haul around to gigs.

The WORST environment for the 48K (or a horn of it's size) would be in a marching band. It would be ripped to shreds in a few short seasons. The large King (Big Bertha) at Purdue spends most of it's time just laying in the end zone during games. I've seen the horn many times and can tell you that it's not in the best of shape. It deserves better than being thrown around. It's really sad that it was mentioned that one of two that were owned by a school band did not survive overhaul... but no surprise, either!

Kids have the wrong impression that these huge horns are loud and would be great to play on the football field. These horns DO move a lot of sound waves but aren't designed to do all of the 'blasting' that occurs in marching band. The timbre is more like huge and round... organ-like. ... not exactly what we generally hear out of marching bands. I can get better marching band 'fart noises' out of a Selmer 'Signet' (fiberglass) sousa that I use for stand-up gigs. I come closer to 'getting the hand' from the conductor using the plastic horn than when using the 'jumbo'.

I'm try to make sure that my 48K never falls into the hands of anyone other than a serious collector. The absolute worst use for it would be in a marching band. Don't even ask if it's for sale!

KiltieTuba wrote:.... As for the weight... maybe for you old guys it might be a problem, but us younger guys don't seem to have the same issues. ....

What 'issues' are you speaking of? Strength? ....or common sense?

bloke wrote:Any real man would offer "a guy in Texas" enough money for his CCC tuba and march with it from south Texas back to Seattle while playing Alford's Purple Carnival March all the way (no rests).

Well, you don't need to state the obvious.

TubaTinker wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:.... As for the weight... maybe for you old guys it might be a problem, but us younger guys don't seem to have the same issues. ....

What 'issues' are you speaking of? Strength? ....or common sense?

Ah Dan as you know... youth is wasted on the young. KT get back to us in 20 years and let us know how standing with that Jumbo worked out for your back.

I have enjoyed playing my Conn 48K Jumbo in Dixieland bands, polka bands, and other "ethnic" bands. Every group has liked the deep, organ-like (as Dan described it) sound of the horn. I'm careful about balance with the other musicians, particularly if there are a smaller quantity of musicians in the group. As indicated in a thread from a couple of weeks ago, the Jumbo may go unmiked while the other musicians are using mics. As Kiltie mentioned, it seems a bit less fatiguing to play standing, and breath support is easier. OTOH, if the whole group is sitting, I'll do so with the Jumbo as well.

I've even been foolish enough to keep the 48K on my shoulder for "strolling" gigs. Conn seems to have paid more attention to ergonomics (a word that may not have even existed when my Jumbo was built in 1930). The distribution of weight is balanced due to the non-symmetrical placement of the inner bow in relation to the outer now. The shoulder plate is also well placed and does relieve what would be a concentration of 52 pounds on one point of the shoulder.

In most applications, I play the Jumbo with a mouthpiece that had a medium-deep cup. But when I know that might be asked to take a chorus in a Dixieland group (which occurs on most Dixoeland gigs), I'll use a more shallow cup such as a Laskey 30C.

If you have one and you need one, a giant sousaphone is very useful. I have owned two of them personally, both Conn 46K's. I now own a 1958-vintage Conn 20K, which is plenty big for normal use. I feel that the efficiency factor of BBb sousaphones is often inversely proportional to the size, as the King and Reynolds sousaphones, which had amongst the smallest bore sizes, were some of the most efficient, and some of the very largest instruments are tremendous "air hogs", although some of that perception may come with their condition. The 48K that Steve Marcus owns is really quite responsive for what it is, and Andy Loree's Conn 46K is a horn I used to use for dixieland band gigs. They CAN be used, and quite effectively, so they are useful, but if there were sufficient demand for them, they would be in production today somewhere, by someone. So, they are very interesting and useful-to-some-people antiques that would cost $20,000.00+ if they were being made to the same standards today that they were then.

One of the most wonderful attributes of humans is their adaptability, as we can normally adapt to play just about anything if we really put our mind to it. I'll say that I've performed on sousaphones ranging from a Reynolds Eb to a Conn jumbo, but still, I think the best fit for myself and most of the masses is something closer to the range from the King on the small side to the Conn 20K on the large side, with the Conn 14K and the somewhat-rare 32K being just the finest-ever players in the middle. As Bloke has mentioned numerous times, you'll be hard-pressed to find a better overall sousaphone than a Conn (Elkhart) 14K. The post-WWII metal Buescher sousaphones have, from what I can tell, a 14K body with distinctive ferrules and a slightly different valveset. These are also amongst the most delicious-playing horns ever.

One final thing I would say about the jumbo sousas and their practicality has to do with weight - the valveset is the heaviest part of the instrument, and if you have a 4-valve jumbo, I'd exercise caution actually using one for very long standing unless you are an athletic giant. The privileged tones are so good on the 6/4 sousas that I never felt at a loss with owning 3-valve versions (which are also a bit less expensive), and the difference in weight for me made the difference between an instrument I could actually fairly-comfortably stroll, march, and stand with, and an instrument that was unduly compressing my spine and enriching my chiropractor and massage therapist.

KiltieTuba wrote:Even a fiberglass Jumbo would save some weight, you could even add a brass bell if needed! I have even been looking into carbon fiber as an alternative, I just need to figure out how to make the body branches.

I think a key point to bear in mind from the above testimonials is that this instrument does not need to be made. Yes, it's fun for half a dozen guys who have an old jumbo sousaphone to play it, maybe even play it often, but they could probably do what they're doing with a 34J, no? For anything that's really happening with sousaphones, you want a smaller one. Seriously.

After finally reading past threads, watching the video, looking at pictures...the Purdue King has a half-sibling, if not true brother, down thar wid some fella in Texas. Chloe is, in my memory at least, the same model. Dick Barth, when he was with King, could find nothing in the files to match the instrument. SN from 1925-30 and bell tenon bigger than the 46K. I will try to verify that...and maybe I can find a video of me playing Chloe. Besides, Chloe is a much cooler name...

On the other end of the spectrum, I have a small B-M Bb sousaphone (I don't know the bore, but the valves are almost euphonium size) that is perfect for almost any gig. I have played Dixieland, small pick-up parades, and even "Them Basses" as a "guest artist" with four other tubas and a community band. My daughter (who is quite small) marches in her high school band with it. The band members call it (and her) the Tiny Tuba. And my daughter's tuba teacher keeps trying to buy it from me for his Klezmer band.

So given how versatile this horn is, why do I still crave an original 20K?

Donn wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:Even a fiberglass Jumbo would save some weight, you could even add a brass bell if needed! I have even been looking into carbon fiber as an alternative, I just need to figure out how to make the body branches.

I think a key point to bear in mind from the above testimonials is that this instrument does not need to be made. Yes, it's fun for half a dozen guys who have an old jumbo sousaphone to play it, maybe even play it often, but they could probably do what they're doing with a 34J, no? For anything that's really happening with sousaphones, you want a smaller one. Seriously.

+1. If I could own only one sousaphone... it would probably be the Selmer 'Signet' Commode-O-Phone! It's a hellofalot more practical than my 48K.

If I could own only one tuba... it would probably be the Miraphone 1291 5V.

All the rest (Marzans, Kings, etc., etc.) are here in 'the collection' simply because they can be.

Let's remind ourselves what a Jumbo sousaphone sounds like!
http://youtu.be/IlBsO7ewjh8

There are many videos of the great old sousaphones on You Tube. Just search for 'Jumbo Summit'. Thanks for putting up the videos. Great memories!

So, Ian, it's been 10 years since I sold Chloe down the pike. Is he the same model as the Purdue? Same size at least? It's simply been too long. You have as good a reference as I do at this point, since I've not seen the Purdue horn in person.

TubaTinker wrote: All the rest (Marzans, Kings, etc., etc.) are here in 'the collection' simply because they can be.

...and that is all the justification necessary!

KiltieTuba wrote:

eupher61 wrote:So, Ian, it's been 10 years since I sold Chloe down the pike. Is he the same model as the Purdue? Same size at least? It's simply been too long. You have as good a reference as I do at this point, since I've not seen the Purdue horn in person.

As far as I'm aware, there are only TWO* four-valve HN White KING Jumbos. One was bought new back in 1925 by Purdue University's All-American Marching Band, along with some four-valve 1251 (that's the standard size) and one or two 1270/1 Giants, and some 1250s. All were satin silver with gold wash/plated bells. The 30 and 32 inch bells were standard for the Jumbos, but you could order just about any bell size up to 36 inches. "Chloe" has a 26 inch original bell, so it was a custom size for maybe a traveling musician... though the case was probably still the same size as the regular 30 or 32 inch bell. Purdue's case is massive and holds the bell on the lid... though I suspect it may have originally held another, smaller sousaphone along with the Jumbo.

Both of the four-valve Jumbos are the same size (excusing the bell diameter).

Purdue's Jumbo was overhauled at least twice, I believe I was told the last overhaul occurred just before they bought new Conn 20Ks. Yes, the Jumbo sits in its case in a huge warehouse, and only really gets played during Homecoming. They're using the new-style neck, which seems to force the player to orient the valves across the body, instead of off to the right. In my video, I have the bell in the right direction, but Jake still place the body across him. For those thinking it doesn't play well, as Jake didn't think it did... it needs the valves aligned. The second valve needs need cork and felt, and I'm sure the other valves to as well.

--------------------

*Mine, while being a four-valve, was originally a three valve and I had a custom fourth added to it. The fourth looks like the other three and even has the long skirt on the bottom of the valve like the other three valves.

so....are you saying Yes or No to my question?

eupher61 wrote:So, Ian, it's been 10 years since I sold Chloe down the pike. Is he the same model as the Purdue? Same size at least?

In my view, the real question here is why isn't Chloe a "she"?

(Also, before typewriters arrived to streamline the language, we'd have probably made that Chlöe, and now that the computer has replaced the typewriter it would be a great time to enjoy some of those extra diacriticals before we lose them again to the stupid cellular phone.)

Curmudgeon wrote:

KiltieTuba wrote:As for the weight... maybe for you old guys it might be a problem, but us younger guys don't seem to have the same issues.

Want to hear some real gurly whining? Attend any HS marching band camp any where this summer. I've never heard such whining and complaining as I do at the beginning of every band camp. Even with fiberglass sousas, they whine like mules. Each year it seems to get worse, too.

Too much sitting on your arses playing video games. Time to man up, Nancy.

I whined, you bet! A musically worthless endeavor, carrying a substandard piece of equipment, for the purposes of killing my will to be a part of the Band. Sousas are not necessary for a marching band. Music is, but hey, that ship sailed from the schools a long long time ago... about the time the football team took all the money.

Grrrrr....

(Marched rehearsals with my bass bone - would've been okay marching with my real tuba, but even with only one tubist, he cared more how it looked than how it sounded... and this from the WMEA; that's when I knew this had nothing to do with art).

Double Grrrrrr....