TubeNet

I added a new jazz tuba lesson on my Jazz Tuba playlist. This sort of finishes the project. I hope you teachers out there will show this to all your students. We need more tuba bass lines out there. I'm sick of the electric bass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIFnT0LEjmI" target="_blank

Yes, Joe nailed it.

I would answer "bloke" in the following manner. Everything you say is essentially true, but the last tuba player I trained - a performance major at U. of South Alabama - learned to be functional in about a week. When I showed him the trick to walking the line, it just blew him away. He then went on to figure out a bunch on his own. There is nothing more exhilarating then to go from zero to playing with a group of experienced players in one week. Not only does the band get a useful tuba player, but the student will be highly motivated to get better. If you go on youtube and listen to the tuba in "Tuba Skinny", you will hear most of the tricks that I have taught in the eight lessons.

Bloke, you should put up your own set of videos. The more, the better. I would have used someone else' videos, but I couldn't find any.

Maybe it's my provider but the link doesn't work... Says removed.

I teach jazz bass, jazz piano, and jazz improv at the local kollig.

My problem with 90% of the students has nothing to do with teaching methods. The problem is that those 90% want someone else to tell them step by step how to "learn jazz" and simply will never recognize that it takes a lot of hard work and doesn't jive well with "instant gratification."

Todd S. Malicoate wrote:I teach jazz bass, jazz piano, and jazz improv at the local kollig.

My problem with 90% of the students has nothing to do with teaching methods. The problem is that those 90% want someone else to tell them step by step how to "learn jazz" and simply will never recognize that it takes a lot of hard work and doesn't jive well with "instant gratification."

I have a lot of respect for those non-music reading self taught guitar players who really understand how the music is put together better than many players who have never gone without reading music. I've watched a guitar playing friend play chord patterns and move them into different keys and so on. He can barely read music but has been picking away almost daily for 50 years and can play along with anything. Working on it for a few hours, he can have it embellished and improved greatly. Would learning to strum a hollow-box be a good tool to learn improvisation?

The Big Ben wrote:Would learning to strum a hollow-box be a good tool to learn improvisation?

I don't think it's particularly helpful. The most important thing is to master whatever instrument you are playing on first. If you can't at least play all major/minor scales and some basic patterns utilizing those scales without having to "think about it" much, do that first.

That advice, unfortunately, is the part most of my students simply don't want to hear. They want me to show them how to improvise when they haven't even mastered the basics on their instruments. And I'm not a fan of impossible tasks.

Rich Matteson used to speak about learning to play popular jazz heads in all 12 keys. The problem is, he wasn't joking and most folks simply don't have the determination to do that.

bloke wrote:Again, that skillset is difficult to teach.

Sometimes - when I'm falling asleep - Mrs. bloke senses that my fingers are moving. In a genuinely sleepy voice, she'll ask, "Are you 'playing your tuba'?" Of course, the answer is "Yes"... When drifting off, often tunes are going through my head, and it's difficult for me to hear something without (at some subconscious - or even unconscious - level) "playing" it.

Wow bloke when my fingers are moving my lovly wife says IN THE MoRNING let me sleep hahah

If I were forced to put a number on this I would say that learning to play jazz on any instrument is an art that takes about 10,000 hours to learn. Learning to play a simple om-pah bass to chord symbols on the tuba is a skill, not an art. However, om-pah bass is very useful and a great place to start.

Most jazz teachers, IMO, ask too much too soon of their students. The reason that guitar player (that someone mentioned) could do things so naturally is that he took it one small step at a time. If you wait until your student can play all the scales in all keys, or hear all the changes, you and he will have a long wait. You learn the scales as you need them, and you learn to hear the changes after you've played them a lot.

kmurdick wrote:Most jazz teachers, IMO, ask too much too soon of their students. The reason that guitar player (that someone mentioned) could do things so naturally is that he took it one small step at a time. If you wait until your student can play all the scales in all keys, or hear all the changes, you and he will have a long wait. You learn the scales as you need them, and you learn to hear the changes after you've played them a lot.

You've seriously got to be kidding. There's simply no point in attempting to improvise on an instrument on which you can't play scales and patterns in those scales somewhat subconsciously. Since the (natural) minor scales are just modes of the major ones, there's only 12 scales to learn. That's "asking too much"?

I've heard students in systems where they just "play what they hear" or stay in the blues scales or other cop-outs. They almost all sound like crap, and an even higher percentage always sound like they're lost when they get to that ii/V in B. If you don't want to sound like crap or sound lost sometimes, put in the work and learn your scales.

I might ask too much, but I also always emphasize to my students that progress as a jazz improviser is entirely up to them. There's no hurry, and there's no time limit to learning skills. But let's not fool ourselves that any real progress is made until those basic skills are mastered. Saying so is a disservice to any students interested in learning the art.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote: Rich Matteson used to speak about learning to play popular jazz heads in all 12 keys. The problem is, he wasn't joking and most folks simply don't have the determination to do that.

Rich used to also wonder why successful classical musicians couldn't even scuffle through "Happy Birthday" in more than a few keys without printed music. It does seem bizarre than anyone could spend that kind of time with an instrument and not even be truly familiar with it.

Curmudgeon wrote:This another fine TubeNet circular logic thread.

Can't "start somewhere" unless you already "know something," can't "know something" unless you "start somewhere."

It ain't rocket science. Dive in.

There are plenty of "talking heads" with limited vocabularies. They're just reading, not thinking.

No, it's really not circular at all.

You can learn your scales and simple patterns in those scales without knowing a fig about improvising jazz or walking bass lines.

You can NOT effectively learn to improvise or walk bass lines without first learning those scales and basic patterns.

Calling this "circular logic" is missing the point. Do "A" first before going to step "F". The problem is the increasing need for instant gratification among almost everyone. People want to sound like this without putting in the effort to get there, and they don't want to be told they can't.

Curmudgeon wrote:There will be no gratification without the learning.

That first taste of freedom from the page maybe be enough to spark some more learning and some more learning and some more learning. If no learning continues and no gratification from actually playing occurs, gratification may come from the appreciation for the learning and skill others exhibit in their playing and that's not a bad thing.

Jump in and start somewhere. Or don't.

I understand your point and it's a valid one. Young players or, really, anyone wanting to learn jazz improvisation shouldn't be discouraged from starting.

The problem I run into is the students I teach mostly all are hoping for a "shortcut" and simply will not put in the effort to learn the basic skills they need to be successful. These are college players and nearly all music majors who are fairly proficient on their instruments. They just don't work on their scales enough in the most foreign keys and get lost when the music shifts to an unusual key area.

Relating this to the thread...I like the videos. They're a good basic explanation of how to start. But the OP also acknowledges in the videos "you have to know theory." Let's not kid ourselves that learning these basic "how to" skills will allow you to play "Cherokee" on the bandstand modulating up a half step every third chorus.

I have a thought. There's a very well-known top institution of learning that's famous for its high level of jazz education a few hours to my south. The elephant and I'm sure some others on the forum attended college there.

I've been there a few times, and each time I'm there I like to walk the halls of the practice buildings (yes, buildings) to see what the jazz students are practicing.

It's always the same. Scales and patterns in all keys.

Todd S. Malicoate wrote: It's always the same. Scales and patterns in all keys.

Which has its critics as well. Jazz should be spontaneous creation based on traditions that have gone before, not "memorize & regurgitate 30 licks in 12 keys at will", which is what that institution's lesson plan was. And yes, I attended there as well.

UncleBeer wrote:Jazz should be spontaneous creation based on traditions that have gone before, not "memorize & regurgitate 30 licks in 12 keys at will", which is what that institution's lesson plan was. And yes, I attended there as well.

I don't disagree with you, but it seems some places (and some artist clinics I've attended lately) have been trying to teach this "creative" approach without the prerequisites. Again, I find those students do "ok" until they reach the ii/V/I in C# major.

I don't ever get tired of listening to those "lick" players that come out of that particular school, though. Seems like there's enough combinations to keep things interesting to my ear.

bloke wrote:
I don't know any "dixieland", "bebop", "straight-ahead", "cool-jazz", or NON-jazz (all types of rock, crossover, C&W, celtic, etc., etc., ad infinitum) extraordinary improvisers whose solo "styles" are NOT personally identifiable (ie. "licks" which are used more than once...read: often).

But those are their licks. NT peddled books of 'approved' licks (call 'em 'starter licks' or whatever) that ultimately became crutches for lots of players. Granted, the pre-approved licks were classic and some owed much to jazz history, but the whole concept seemed antithetical to the idea of creativity.

UncleBeer wrote:But those are their licks. NT peddled books of 'approved' licks (call 'em 'starter licks' or whatever) that ultimately became crutches for lots of players. Granted, the pre-approved licks were classic and some owed much to jazz history, but the whole concept seemed antithetical to the idea of creativity.

I totally disagree. Bert Ligon (one of the best college jazz educators in the country for improvisation, IMO) teaches that way. He starts with three basic "outlines" for ii/V/I progressions and has students learn them. Later they develop them in context of various standards. They also transcribe and analyze solos by some of the jazz greats and identify these basic outlines in use.

It's not meant to be a crutch. It's an excellent starting point. Most players, once they master these basics, will develop their own jazz vocabulary and stockpile of licks from that starting point.

More on Bert Ligon's courses at http://in.music.sc.edu/ea/jazz/improv.html.

I'm kind of lost in this argument. On the sax list I asked this question (to several hundred teachers/band directors): "How many high school students out there can play the major scales in all 12 keys?" The answer was "none". So maybe nobody should attempt any kind of improvisational study? Let's face it, most musical arts are an "old world" discipline. It takes the kind of guts that few have. The trick is to lure those few in.

And another thing, comping on the tuba (like me comping on the banjo) is a skill that most can learn without busting their backside's. I put those videos out there so I won't have to train the next tuba player. I'm lazy.