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Does anyone know if there is such a thing as a Bach 32E with a small shank? If so, where could one be found?

Still looking for the perfect mouthpiece for that horn that will make it play in tune, eh?

If you want to try something like a 32E but with the small European shank, try some of the Denis Wick bass trombone mouthpieces. The shank is almost identical to the small european tuba shank. Start with a 2AL and try the 1AL and even the 0AL. Then try the 00AL and/or the Schilke 60. You can get them on trial at places like Hickey's or DF Music. In my experience, the Wicks work better on euphoniums and tuba-like instruments than do the Schilke bass trombone mouthpieces (which tend to play noticeably flat on euphs and such), but on my Buescher the Schilke 60 did better.

I still don't think that any of them are going to make the horn play in tune, but when I was trying hard to convince myself that it was a mouthpiece issue with my Buescher, the Schilke 60 worked better than anything else. As long as you weren't playing with an ensemble and kept at least one eye on the tuner, you could just about convince yourself that it was working. (Didn't sound so much like a tuba, but you can't have everything.)

Good luck.

Grooving for Heaven wrote:I've never seen one. A shank could be turned down a lot cheaper than it would cost to get an elliot or something like that.

Yes, if you want to gamble on something that's irreversible with no guarantee of success.

Yes, I'm still looking for a mouthpiece that is close to the original. I don't know if it will make it play in tune, but I'm hoping that something that is rather shallow and smaller than most pieces will be a good match for the horn.

Normally I am skeptical of the bass trombone mouthpiece thing, because mine really doesn't take bass trombone mouthpieces very well (they're too big), and even if it fits, what you get is a trombone mouthpiece that doesn't suit a tuba very well. But in your case, as a cheap way to verify that a mouthpiece won't solve your problem, maybe it would indeed make sense to get a Kelly 1½G (yes, they're back) and hammer it in there and see what happens.

Well, we're talking about an Eb Buescher horn that was made just a bit earlier than mine was, and the bass trombone mouthpieces mentioned fit mine very well. (They just couldn't correct for a horn that wasn't pitched to 440. ) So my guess is that they fit this one too. There should be no "hammering in" required .

While the Kelly 1 1/2G is a good idea in that regard, you could actually get three or four DW or other mouthpieces on trial for about a third of what a Kelly would cost. The trial cost (for places like DF Music, for example) is just the cost of shipping since there is no restocking fee. And at that point you'd be pretty sure that there wasn't a mouthpiece left on the planet that would make it play in tune (which is actually pretty clear at this point, I believe).

Just wondering: Is this horn a high-pitch? If so, you might try to find a sousaphone bit that will fit or even have one fabricated. The extra 2.5---3" can make the difference.It worked well on my 1865 Slater Eb.

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I haven't given up on the horn playing in tune, as the only mouthpiece I have tried on it is a 24AW -- which just seems to not be a good match for this horn.

bigbassman wrote:Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I haven't given up on the horn playing in tune, as the only mouthpiece I have tried on it is a 24AW -- which just seems to not be a good match for this horn.

I had the impression that at this point you'd tried a bunch already. A 24AW definitely would be a poor choice. What ended up working best for me is the Wick 5 (not the 5L). But only after I cut the horn down. If you do try a smaller mouthpiece (like the Wick 5 or some of the bass trombone mouthpieces), then take the opportunity to try it/them on scales with your tuner set at different pitches (from, say, 435-445). If it turns out to play a reasonably in-tune scale at one of those settings, that will be a clue.

I heard that bloke's mouthpieces are all pretty much based on the 24AW, though. Ha ha. The thing to look out for in a 24AW is a fairly big throat -- honestly haven't actually seen one, but that's the story I've heard. I don't know that it would really cause pitch problems, but it sure isn't going to make them easier to deal with.

I use a Denis Wick 5 in my Eb, like it a lot. It isn't a really shallow mouthpiece, though. The 4 might be shallower.

All Bach tuba mouthpieces used to be available by special order with a "Boosey and Hawkes" shank (I once even found a small-shank 24AW on the shelf in a music shop - it has a letter "B" stamped on the shank.) I don't know whether these are still made since Bach was taken over by Selmer.

To get a small-shank 32E, your options are:

• Get a Denis Wick 5 tuba mouthpiece (NOT the 5L). This is cousin to the 32E, and the stock item has the small shank.
• or - have your supplier special-order a 32E with "B+H" shank (if Bach still offer this service). You may possibly be able to order direct from Bach (?).
• or - get a standard-shank 32E, and have the shank turned down. It needs to be a Morse #1 taper, with an external diameter of 0.490" at the tip. This is possible, but on mine the metal at the end of the shank is a bit thin and delicate.

From personal experience, using a tiny mouthpiece like this raises the pitch (the old KosiKup mouthpiece was also a notorious example), but handicaps you badly both in sound quality and in maximum dynamics; My B+H Imperial Eb could be lipped into tune with a 32E, but was always disappointingly weak. Now I've had it re-tuned and gone back to a Denis Wick 2, it's to die for (YMMV). Many people like the DW3 for Eb, or even a DW4 in small ensembles; you get a more colorful sound, but you lose that sonorous low register (the 3 is based on the 24AW, and the 4 and 5 are scaled down versions of the 3, but the 2 is based on the EZ-Tone).

From your previous threads, it seems your instrument is playing very flat. The LP stamp on your second valve might refer to the old Low Pitch standard of A=435 (based on the "Diapason normal" set by the French in 1859, and widely adopted as the earliest international standard). If this is the case, your instrument needs some judicious cutting of tube lengths - very roughly, removing half an inch of tubing from an Eb raises the pitch about 5 cents, and it looks as if your tuning slide could be shortened quite a bit. You may need to get the valve slides shortened too, especially number 3.

You think he's stubborn ? It took me twenty years to admit the problem was in the horn, and not just my lack of development. It took another ten after that to gather the courage to have the horn cut. I really, really wish I had got it fixed a couple of decades earlier.

20/20 hindsight tells me that when an instrument is that flat, the time to get it cut is NOW.

Well, there are three forces typically mitigating against cutting or otherwise physically altering the horn.

First -- particularly if you don't know the history of instrument development -- you're inclined to believe that the instrument MUST play in tune because surely it was made to do that. And if it doesn't play in tune for you, then it must be something about either you or the mouthpiece (or maybe it's leaking or ...). With a little education in terms of the history of the development of brass instruments, you may learn that "in tune" can mean several different things. But you can still try to ignore this. Hope lives eternal -- especially in the presence of ignorance and stubbornness.

Second, altering the instrument physically is generally an irreversible (or at least practically irreversible) action. Not a step you want to take if you have ANY doubt. So you want to try everything you can short of that. This is reasonable, but at a certain point you have to realize there's nothing more to do and that you're spending more money and effort in a lost cause.

Third, there is the expense of altering the horn -- if you aren't capable of doing it yourself. I don't think I would have wanted to throw the amount of money necessary into cutting down my 1924 Buescher if I had had to pay someone to do it. Since I was confident that I could do it myself, this was not such a stumbling block and instead became something of an adventure. And I could do it slowly and carefully -- testing each result along the way.

Someone more experienced than I am could easily have picked up my horn, played it, tried it against a tuner, known the history of tubas in the late 19-th and early 20-th century, and immediately said "It's pitched below 440. Just needs to be cut." It took me a lot longer and a lot more care and effort. I think bigbassman ran out of rope on this one a long time ago, but he's still got the hope.

The 30E and 32E were made for the Barcone baby sousaphones, which had very small bores. So I am fairly sure these mouthpieces came with small shanks.

The Bach mouthpiece manual isn't specific on this matter:

http://www.bachbrass.com/pdf/AV6001%20B ... Manual.pdf

Klaus

Grooving for Heaven wrote:I owned a 32e at one time. Mine was a standard American shank.

I have (and use) a 30E -- American shank also.

I'm no sort of mouthpiece expert but the York Monster Eb I acquired 40-ish years ago came with an "ALL * STAR E -- BASS" mouthpiece.

In the last six months I've acquired a fair to middlin' collection of small shank M/P's after getting an old Boosey & Co. three valve compenasting BBb. All of them have been plugged into the York and it still seems to love the ALL STAR more than any of the others.

I know that the York Monsters are animals unto themselves but OP might want to try one of those. Recently I purchased an "ALL * STAR BB -- BASS" on ebay so it would seem that they are still around.