Help w/ Eb tuba low register

[Too Loud]

Dear Collective Wisdom,

I am into day four of a seven day trial period before I buy a German-made Eb tuba and, thus far, its low-register is unstable and "squirly." I've played many BBb, CC, & F tubas before, but not an Eb tuba. We all know that most German-made F tubas have a "squirly" low-register. It was my understanding that German-made Eb tubas do not suffer from the same "squirly" low-registers that their F tuba brothers do- IS THIS INCORRECT? Do most German-made Eb tubas have such difficult to play low-registers?

TIA,

Christopher

[swillafew]

I played a Miraphone "Norwegian Star", and it was awesome in the low range and in general too. The same day I heard a Meinl Weston in Eb, played by a fine player, it was wonderful to hear in all the ranges.

[k001k47]

You have a different amp; it doesn't like to vibrate in those frequencies (think, using a - grotesque hyperbole - tweeter as a subwoofer (I guess the suitable analogy there would be using a picc trumpet to play tuba parts). Adjust your input accordingly. Buzz stays the same.

Hope my two cents are of use, sir.

[ppalan]

I can only speak from my own experience. I have an old Amati 4-rotor Eb. (I know...not German but...pretty much same design) The low register is not at all good. Eb just below the staff is good. The D, Db are ok but after that very difficult for me to get a decent sound. There could be leak issues although none obvious. I've tried different mouthpieces with, at best marginal improvement. Oddly, using a crappy Kellyberg mpc, it is the only horn on which I can play the Bydlo solo. (My upper range is not great.) Go figger.
Pete

[ghmerrill]

Have you done a thorough leak check on it? Stuff something (paper towel roll in plastic bag, ...) firmly in bell and blow through mouthpiece/lead pipe; see if you hear any hissing). If it's an old rotary instrument, they sometimes leak through either the top or bottom rotor bushings, or certainly through a water key, and possibly through some other joint(s).

Also, if you are not accustomed to playing Eb, there is some possibility that the squirreliness in the low register is in you and not the horn. But after a few days, I'd guess you would have figured that out.

Ah ... If it's that Miraphone 183, the intonation looks okay (not what I'd call great; but certainly okay for a horn of that type) on it. But still check for a leak. Again, if you're not accustomed to an Eb, the low range may take some effort initially. If everything seems okay down to the Eb (first ledger line below the staff), and then gets dicey, it indeed could be the horn -- or you.

[imperialbari]

Whether this is a player or an instrument related problem is impossible to tell at the distance.

I have written some exercises for false notes, which I use to improve my general playing including my low range. These exercises were presented here:

viewtopic.php?p=444995#p444995

Klaus

[Too Loud]

Dear Readers,

Thank you so far for your responses...last night's practice session revealed that my low-register "chops" are gradually maturing. a larger MP also helped. I will try out the papertowel roll in a shopping sack stuffed in the bell thing tonight

What I really want to know is whether or not I was wrong in my understanding that the low-registers of most Eb tubas are as easy to play as the low-registers of contrabass tubas.

Thank you,

Christopher

[TheHatTuba]

The particular horn and design has way more to do with a "good" low register than the key. Large piston bass tubas and some of the newer rotary models generally (not always) have easier low registers than older, smaller bore, rotary bass tubas. Ex: MW 2250 v. Mira 183 or Willson 3400 v. Mira 180.

[Jay Bertolet]

What I really want to know is whether or not I was wrong in my understanding that the low-registers of most Eb tubas are as easy to play as the low-registers of contrabass tubas.

It depends on the Eb tuba. I have a lot of experience with various types of Ebs since that is my preferred bass tuba. It's hard to generalize because every instrument is different. I can tell you that I own 2 different Eb tubas and both have radically different low ranges. My Willson 3400S has as easy a low range to play as just about any contrabass tuba I've ever owned or played. The Willson is a pretty big bass tuba so there are things you give up for that. Conversely, my Cerveny AEB641 has what I would call the typical problematic low range that you would find on many bass tubas, in particular the notorious F tuba type low range that so many players complain about. However, that horn has a really great middle and upper register that makes it really nice for some other things where the low range is either workable or not an issue.

I know it is a fairly fashionable idea around here to say that bass tuba low range playing is something you really need to practice to be proficient on. I chose not to choose an instrument that caused me that headache and tried to pick one that felt good to me immediately. That's what I have now and I suggest that if you wish to get the same, start trying out horns until you run across one that feels right to you. I don't believe that all Eb tubas are better in the low range than F tubas. It depends on the design of the horn and my Cerveny is a perfect example of a horn who's design clearly is based on F tuba design and has the same problems as those F tubas. So Eb is no magic bullet in that regard. As with any tuba, only you can decide what feels right to you and that's where I would start.

[bill]

Jay and I play the same Eb Horn for the same reason. I played in one symphony for 2 years before I was asked what sort of CC it was (it was a Willson 3400s Eb). But, as I have several bass tubas as well as several contrabass tubas and because I tend to prefer a smaller mouthpiece (largest I am comfortable with is a Conn 1 I lucked in to, for Contras - I use a Churada and a Yamaha 64 or 65 and a custom Doug Elliot for Bass Tubas) I can firmly state that the best low register, regardless of the horn, is the horn I spend the most time on with the Grigoriev Etudes. There is no exception to this. A corollary is that I can't make any decision on a horn's lower register until I have a month with those etudes. At that point, there is usually no difference in the sound I get in the register from Eb(2) down an octave.

It is a bit frustrating to have read the OP without having the horn revealed. I think other posters have made that point but it occurs to me that there must be some reason for the lack of that piece of information even if I can't figure it out. If a tuba does not leak, it will play in the low register if YOU can play in the low register.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, exactly.

[Too Loud]

Thank you all for your replies. I understand now that many modern bass tubas have great playing low-registers and the older bass tubas do not. I prematurely posed this question to y'all- I should have waited for my Eb "chops" to mature before I asked y'all this question. The problem very well lie in me and not the horn. Sorry

As TheHatTuba said,

The particular horn and design has way more to do with a "good" low register than the key.

And as Mr. Bertolet said,

As with any tuba, only you can decide what feels right to you and that's where I would start.

Both of you prove the observation that "It depends on the tuba."

I wish that I had the resources to "try out" different tubas, but that simply is not an option for me. I read a few threads on this forum about how Eb tubas were sort-of the tuba to have if you could only have one tuba, and so I thought that I would test out that sentiment. I think that if cost was not such a limiting factor for me, then I would find the "perfect tuba", if such a beast even exists.

FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO JUST GOTTA KNOW THE MAKE/MODEL: The tuba I'm test driving has a great mid- and upper-register & the low-reg could be a lot worse. I haven't specified the make/model of the tuba I'm testing-out because it's not fair to the seller if y'all lost interest in the seller's horn just because I couldn't get the low-reg to work for me. I don't want my opinion to unfairly bias your perception of the seller's horn.

If I go ahead and purchase this horn, I would not feel bad about it because the horn is a good horn, which is solidly built by a good brand-name, and should meet most of my needs.

Christopher

[ghmerrill]

I read a few threads on this forum about how Eb tubas were sort-of the tuba to have if you could only have one tuba, and so I thought that I would test out that sentiment.

I'm sympathetic to this view, but the view I'm sympathetic to does not entail that just any Eb tuba is the sort of tuba you should have if you could have only one tuba. There are a lot of Eb tubas that don't begin to approach the "do it all" criterion. One of those is my 1924 Buescher Eb. It's a fun "street corner" horn, but trying to use it to do something like supporting a community band is not going to work so well.

Something like a Besson 981 (a good one), or a clone of that, or a 982 or a Norwegian Star, or a Starlight, or even a St. Petersburg 206, or others in that class ... well, yeah. But an arbitrary German/Czech 4-valve non-compensating Eb horn? Maybe (if you're lucky), or maybe not. That's what testing it is all about.

That tuba you're testing may be good FOR WHAT IT IS, and for certain applications. But it just may not be what you had hoped for in terms of an all-around tuba you could use in a variety of applications. And you really can't draw any general conclusions about Eb tubas from that -- just that maybe this particular one isn't what you need. The same could easily be true if you were testing a BBb or a CC tuba.

[Untersatz]

I am into day four of a seven day trial period before I buy a German-made Eb tuba

I would try to play-test a more modern Eb horn (with a larger bore) and see if that changes the low register response at all. At least that way you'd know if it's you..........or the horn. The 183 is not noted for having a very solid low register as others have indicated on this board.