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It depends if the person playing one is getting paid or not, if they are, it's a pro horn.

Seriously, what makes something a professional model? Very few tuba players in the US use BBb tubas as their main horns. Therefore this tuba is primarily intended for the school or amateur markets. I think that Conn intended the 5XJ series to be professional tubas, and other than the 5th valve I don't think that there is any substantive difference between these, so make up your own mind.

The 2341 is King's top of the line model. In CC,there's the Conn 5xJ with 5 valves, but basically built from the same stuff, save the 5th rotor.

The King is a good deal for the money that will probably be all that you'll ever want in a BBb tuba.

How's that for an answer?

I have played a number of 2341s. It's a really good BBb that I would really consider buying if I hadn't already bought my most recent CC.

I went tuba shopping about a year and a half ago with a friend of mine (he was looking for a horn). He narrowed it down to the King and a St. Petersburg. I convinced him to go with the King, (he was tempted only by the St. Pete's price), and he loves it. He plays it in the community concert band and orchestra.

If you find a new King 2341 that is made well-enough, it could certainly be used as a professional instrument.

However, I have concerns about the fit- and finish of the pistons, and the fact that Conn-Selmer-LeBlanc no longer puts a protective wire in the bell rim. I may be wrong, but I believe that the hollow bell rim that may give more brightness and "zing" to a trombone or trumpet is a bad idea for a tuba. I think this directly affects the sound and carrying power of a tuba, and makes the bell more susceptible to damage.

About a year ago, there was a like-new old model 2341UB (upright bell) in my shop, one of the very last made, and that horn was a real honey. It was so much so, that when hired to play on an Orchestra Atlanta concert, I took that horn. We performed selections from "Birth of the Cool", and some other music where the tuba parts looked more like saxophone parts. The range was from well below the staff to the Eb above the staff, and we only got to rehearse part of the music. Even under those conditions, the King performed like a champ. The .689" bore made it easy to get a full sound without over-balancing the ensemble, and quite an agile instrument. FWIW, a crystal red Kellyberg completed the set-up.

I personally like the older-style King 2341, which has a bit leaner bell, giving it body dimensions between an old standard-sized York BBb and the venerable Mirafone 186. What is the criteria for a professional instrument? Most designations of "student" or "professional" tubas have to do with how much nickel-silver (more costly) was used in the instrument. As far as playing characteristics, the best two Mirafone CC tubas to come through my shop both had 4 valves, and one of them was a plain-Jane, "student" model. Fancy finishing touches are nice and may make an instrument more durable, but it doesn't make them play better.

cyras21 wrote:By professional I meant the make, like the miraphone 191, where they have a student model and pro model. I have no idea what the difference is besides price. I'm just looking for a good BBb horn. I've never played any other key and don't really see the need in switching now. I plan on joining the local community band and hopefully a quintet sometime but a BBb should work just fine in either setting.

That Mirafone difference is really just plain old marketing.

What you really have is like this:

Economy (Student)
Standard (Professional)
Deluxe (Professional in Gold Brass)

I personally see little to no difference in the names. In fact, I would think that the names I have substituted would work better.

People with $$$$$ can go for the "Deluxe" model. Engrave that on the bell and people will automatically think it is better.

People who are thrifty and willing to play test a lot of horns could come across a good "Economy" model. I have played a Mirafone CC 186S (Student) that was fantastic. Instead of saying your trying to be a pro on a "Student" line, just say you found a "Economy" model that meets/exceeds your needs. Talk about Return On Investement!

A horns status is determened by its user, not the designation of the manufacturer. I remember a lot of trumpet players picking up the "Intermediate" and certain "Student" (2XX and 4XX series) Yamaha trumpets because they sounded much better than anything else they made at the time.

The new King is a good horn, but I believe, like Lee, that the older 2341 was just as good if not a touch better. The smaller bell seems to have given it a bit more punch and the build quality seemed to be better. If you bought the King Factory cases, you got near airline quality cases as well. The new King 2341 brings the bell closer to the ear and does a nice job of imitating the Conn and York sound of yesteryear better. However, those old King seemd to be based off a more German influence than their counterparts (think Bill Bell's Kings).

Simply put, the King BBb is a professional horn if the guys using it is paying bills with the notes that come out of the bell.

The names are just marketing.

Lee Stofer wrote: What is the criteria for a professional instrument? Most designations of "student" or "professional" tubas have to do with how much nickel-silver (more costly) was used in the instrument.

Please expand on that some. I though nickel-silver had fallen out of fashion.I know nickel-silver was popular in trombone slides for a while, and I like the sound, but though was out of fassion again.

Where is it used in tubas?

ThomasDodd wrote:

Lee Stofer wrote: What is the criteria for a professional instrument? Most designations of "student" or "professional" tubas have to do with how much nickel-silver (more costly) was used in the instrument.

Please expand on that some. I though nickel-silver had fallen out of fashion.I know nickel-silver was popular in trombone slides for a while, and I like the sound, but though was out of fassion again.

Where is it used in tubas?

Mirafone "Pro" models have a Nickle(German) Silver leadpipe and the slides for the valves are made of nickle silver. The "Student" line horns are brass in these areas. Additionally, some, not all, of the Student line (and the "TE" line) do not have the nickle silver bell garland.

I think the main point of the Nickle or German Silver is the durability issue. The leadpipe cannot get corrode like a brass one and get red rot, and the slides can be lapped in and retain a smoother feel to them a bit better than the brass.

The affect of the Nickle silver is very minimal, if anything, I would say that it makes the response feel a bit faster or the slots a little more defined on the nickle silver leadpipe.

Matthew Gilchrest wrote:

ThomasDodd wrote:

Lee Stofer wrote: What is the criteria for a professional instrument? Most designations of "student" or "professional" tubas have to do with how much nickel-silver (more costly) was used in the instrument.

Please expand on that some. I though nickel-silver had fallen out of fashion.I know nickel-silver was popular in trombone slides for a while, and I like the sound, but though was out of fassion again.

Where is it used in tubas?

Mirafone "Pro" models have a Nickle(German) Silver leadpipe and the slides for the valves are made of nickle silver. The "Student" line horns are brass in these areas. Additionally, some, not all, of the Student line (and the "TE" line) do not have the nickle silver bell garland.

I think the main point of the Nickle or German Silver is the durability issue. The leadpipe cannot get corrode like a brass one and get red rot, and the slides can be lapped in and retain a smoother feel to them a bit better than the brass.

The affect of the Nickle silver is very minimal, if anything, I would say that it makes the response feel a bit faster or the slots a little more defined on the nickle silver leadpipe.

There was a pro line Miraphone 191 next to an "S" line at TUSABTEC. The pro model had engraved nickel silver valve casings, in addition to the nickel silver slides, leadpipe, and bell garland. It is supposed to be less corrosion resistant, and the prices didn't seem to be that far apart, although I can't remember the exact difference.

cyras21 wrote:Is this a professional model?

It's priced to compete with mid-level BBb tubas commonly played by good students and amateur adults. As others have said, the Miraphone 1291/191's are priced to compete with instruments intended for professionals to use, or perhaps a few of the more well-to-do amateurs.

If you compare a Conn 56J and a 2341 side-by-side, you'll see differences in fit and finish. These differences are the things they did to control cost so they could price it as they have.

Of course, none of that has anything to do with how an instrument might reasonably be used. The tuba player in the Dixie Power Trio (whose name escapes me at the moment) uses a 2341. I know the trombone/tuba player for the Buck Creek Jazz Band, and he also uses a 2341. For him, the King replaced a G-50 that he had modified so that it worked well with the fifth valve normally engaged. There's a couple of professional applications.

There is nothing on the market like a 2341 that is priced such that one expects only professionals to consider them. So, if you want a horn like that, there is little alternative.

Rick "who thinks 'professional' use is a matter of duty cycle as much as anything" Denney

While this post is still fairly new and people are looking at it, how does the sound/intonation of the new 2341 compare with the new Conn. I've played and I liked the old style 2341. How does it compare with the old style 2341 and other well-knowns like the Mirafones?

Tabor wrote:While this post is still fairly new and people are looking at it, how does the sound/intonation of the new 2341 compare with the new Conn. I've played and I liked the old style 2341. How does it compare with the old style 2341 and other well-knowns like the Mirafones?

For me, the intonation is quite good--comparable to but different than a Miraphone. I've never noticed any particular trend in the older Kings that I've played, so I can't comment there. They all seem to be pretty good.

I would classify the sound as big and warm--comparable to the Conn, the Getzen G-50 and other tubas based on the Monster Eb bell. Make sure the valves are properly aligned. I have played some of the Kings that responded poorly on the fourth valve, and this may have been an alignment problem. The instrument is more resonant and open-sounding than an old-style King, in my opinion, though that opinion may be based on age issues in the examples of older Kings I've tried. It may also be based on the proximity of the shorter bell to my ear.

Rick "who would buy one from a shop qualified and willing to give a good pre-sale workover" Denney

They are excellent horns. I too ,would have a Lee Stofer or Matt Walters tweak a bit, but i believe a gigging tubist could do about everything on a new 2341 and have several thousand left over for an f tuba or some lyposuction

playing a Conn 52J and having played several 2341's (old and new) I think the new ones are great horns that play very well in tune, have a very quick response, and as pointed out earlier have that big warm sound with that big bell flare. Had i not purchased my CC from my teacher, I would definitely own a 2341 and use it as my main horn. The one thing about the 2341 I really like is that they seem to be a bit more consistent than the Conn 5xJ's which makes choosing one pretty easy. the only downside (if you can call it that) that I have witnessed is transporting them. If you have them in a gig bag be very very careful, because that bell likes to find door frames, etc. Also..now that I think of it Andy Kochenaur (sp?) of Dixie Power Trio uses a 2341 and sounds GREAT on it.