TubeNet

Hi All,

First off, I've been lurking off and on for a few years...gleaning what info I can from the forum and doing my best to search for answers to the questions I have (that I am sure have been asked and answered before) before I ask the same question yet again. One problem is that my searches tend to be "too common" and often end without results. So here goes: (and thanks in advance!)

I play euphonium (non-comp), treble clef. I can read bass clef, but for whatever reason my brain refuses to wrap itself around fingering oddities such as playing Bb "open" when I've played Bb with 1 all of my life. As a result, I usually just do a quick transposition (in pencil) by changing the key signature and moving the notes down (or up as the case may be).

I play in church as part of a brass ensemble...and our tubist moved to Boston. In addition, our tuba supplier (a middle school band director) retired and no longer has a beat up middle school tuba for us to borrow.

I often play the tuba parts on my euph, but let's face it: it's no tuba. So, I am looking for a tuba that I can learn to play (something I've always wanted to do) that I can in turn "donate" to the church in case a REAL tuba player comes along. Of course, if, in the meantime I turn into a real tuba player I will never, ever give it away

My thoughts are (based on what I've read here and other places):
1. Buy a used EEb tuba, do the transposition trick, and be able to concentrate on playing with good tone quicker than having to learn (no guarantee) a bunch of new fingerings. Or,
2. Buy a used CC tuba, read bass clef and use the fingerings I'm familiar with.

My concerns are:
1. Would an EEb have a good tuba sound or would it just sound like a large compensating euphonium played a fifth lower? It would be used for small ensembles (couple of trumpets, horns, bones...NOT to be the foundation of a true band or orchestra), so would it have the depth to do that?
2. Most used EEb's I've come across on the internet have 3 valves...would this mean a bunch of slide pulling for intonation...in other words...would it be better just to hold off until I find a 4 valve? Or does it make that much of a difference? No pro here, remember...but I do want to play in tune the simple stuff I'll probably be playing.
3. Would a CC just be flat out "too big"? I'm not tiny, but I am a 5'6" woman who would have to hold the thing, and be able to fill it up with sufficient air (note that I am also a vocalist...1st soprano...with a trained set of lungs).

Getting a BBb is not out of the question...I just don't have a lot of confidence that I'll be able to learn new fingerings. And that would leave me frustrated with a tuba that SOMEONE ELSE will get to play I work 12 hour days as an RN...music is my hobby, so I want to increase my chances of success as much as possible.

Thoughts? Suggestions for tubas to avoid? Like notoriously bad or problematic ones... I'm not opposed to a stencil horn. My euph is a Bach stencil of a King 2280 that I bought online from Tuba Exchange after much research and many phone calls.

Thanks...sorry it's so long. Just trying to give you lots of info in hopes that I'll get lots of answers!

First, don't give up on learning to play bass clef parts. It's a great skill to have. Here is a blog post that explains how you can do it fairly easily:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.php/ ... -Euphonium

I was a professional euphonium player but I'm an amateur tuba player. My own tuba is a Sovereign EEb compensating. It produces a very satisfactory sound for covering bass parts. John Fletcher used the same instrument in the Philip Jones brass ensemble. During a clinic he gave many years back he said he often used the EEb in orchestra, but of course would switch to a big, German CC for those pieces where you need the larger/louder sound. Here is the horn, with Fletcher playing in a solo role:

http://www.dwerden.com/music-videos/tub ... 20Fletcher

Be aware there are small CC's and large EEb's (the Sovereign EEb is what I would call large). There are some small CC's that are easier to carry and manage that my Sovereign (heavy metal in Sovereigns of that era, and the compensating system adds weight). Most tubists I've talked to advise against using a 3-valve EEb. I suspect you'll want a 4-valve instrument. A non-compensating horn may be fine. The compensating system gives you a better chromatic scale in the low register; with a non-comp 4-valve you will be without a good low E on an EEb or a low B on a CC. The compensating gives you those notes, although you still have to lip down nearly a quarter step.

I'll let the tuba players on this forum advise you about particular brands and models, especially in the CC / BBb realm where I have extremely limited experience.

Have you considered a 3/4 BBb tuba? That would help with the size issue. And if you're planning to go the transposition route, it's no more work to do the transposition trick with a BBb than an EEb, so that's a wash. (Better yet, if you can get your music director to buy Salvation Army arrangements, you're golden since they come with tuba parts in Bb treble clef.)

Oh ... and Mack Brass sells a 3+1 EEb compensator, if you decide to go that route.

I think Bloke's advice is spot on - much time is spent with discussions of F, Eb, CC, and BBb tubas for various reasons, but unless you find a horn that blows easily for you, produces a tone you like, nothing else really matters all that much. Keep in mind that there is no "set" combination of player, mouthpiece, and horn that is 100% good for everyone. The best thing to do is try some horns and
see what you might like - if there are some local players around where you live (church players, community bands, local colleges, etc.), contact them and see if they will let you try one of their horns - that way you begin to get a idea of what might work for you.

First of all: Welcome as a new member! Hopefully you will contribute when and where you are able.
You don't indicate where you live, so it's hard to direct you to that place where you can actually try tubas [multiples will likely be needed to find just the right one that chooses you] before buying. There are a number of such places across the country, so if you can share your location, maybe someone can make a good suggestion.
Enjoy coming over to the dark side!

One thought I haven't seen addressed would be this. If you are to be the player of the non-yet-purchased tuba, it is likely that an Eb tuba would make the best choice. You'd find reading the bass clef tuba parts to be easier. On the other hand, if someone else is likely to step in and play the instrument, it is likely that a BBb tuba would be a better choice. This is true because today's schools are almost exclusively teaching students to play the BBb tuba.

You also did not indicate how much money you might be willing or able to spend. This could have some impact what instruments would be possible.

First, Welcome to the board.

To answer your 3 concerns:
1 - A good Eb tuba sounds like a tuba when paired with a good mouthpiece. If you chose that route, don't be worried that you're not sounding right. The typical british style compensating Eb tuba is an excellent small ensemble horn and works well in a tuba section for larger ensembles. Your not ever going to be the only tubist behind a 70 piece string and wind orchestra so don't worry about the size. Also quite fun to have for events like Tuba Christmas where you get to play the tenor voice in the low brass choir. I've considered buying one for myself just for these reasons.
2 - Skip the 3 valve Eb. I've never run into a compensating 3 valve tuba that I've liked (BBb or Eb). You'll want the 4th valve (comp or not) as you develop your low range.
3 - You're NOT too small. I knew a lady who played BBb tuba in the Triangle British Brass Band. That is a top notch competitive brass band in Raleigh, NC. She was no bigger than your description of yourself. She also never had any trouble lugging her horn around in its case (with wheels). You may want to avoid the gig bag and make sure you get a hard case with wheels. It should go without saying that breath control will not be an issue for anyone who already has vocal training. You will probably want a simple stand to take the weight off of your lap.

My suggestions:
1 - Check out Mack Brass or Wessex (both are sponsors, I think). They're competitive on price for a new british style 3+1 compensating Eb or a german style 5V rotary CC tuba. Both horns get excellent reviews.
2 - Consider which type of valves you want and if they need to be front or top located. I'm a fan of having front valve action so I turn pages with my right hand. I'm also a fan of rotors because they don't need frequent oil, but you may want to stick with pistons based on your euphonium experience.
3 - Ideally, you should play test the instrument before you buy. Especially true if you buy a used instrument.
4 - Skip '3/4' size instruments. They're ok for middle school students who don't have a developed set of lungs, but you'll be frustrated by the limits of their dynamic range.

It's a waste of time to even think about getting a good tuba. Take Bloke's advice to mean that for the present, all tubas are stinky. If you later decide against all common sense to take up the quest for the holy grail of a good tuba, at least by then you'll have some experience playing tuba and might know it when you see it.

BBb would be a lot easier to find, if you want something that isn't grossly stinky but doesn't cost an arm and a leg, for introductory purposes. Whether your mind will ever successfully be wrapped around reading for BBb, I can't guess - we're all different there. Some people adjust easily, some don't, and the same tricks don't work for all. (CC wouldn't work for me -- different lines is different lines, doesn't matter that they're the same notes if you take into account that it's the bass clef.) My first thought was that the Eb trick would be your answer, but honestly maybe it's more of a gimmick or crutch that's great for the occasional emergency but isn't so good for the long term, as the accidentals etc. would be a regular source of confusion. Go Eb only if a bass tuba is the right thing for your music. If there's a lot of stuff below Bb below the bass clef, I'd say it isn't.

Thanks everyone for addressing some of my concerns and offering various opinions. Your responses pretty much confirm my gut instincts. The right horn (whatever pitch) will be the one I can play!

Mr. Werden...I learned that transposition trick from you a few years ago (after some internet searches) when I first started doubling trombone and tuba parts! It's been a life saver. I also use Finale to re-write the parts if they are particularly complicated and too messy with accidentals, etc. Part of me, however, wants to flat out learn to play tuba as written...approach it as a totally different beast. Just read the bass clef and play the notes as written. I can probably learn the fingering while I'm playing lots and lots of scales and exercises to get good tone with a centered pitch.

I live in suburban Atlanta, by the way...so there are a lot of good resources near by. And I'm not afraid to get in the car and drive a reasonable distance if I have a few days off. I have had some dealings with a local euph pro player, and a pretty well respected brass repairman so I guess I need to make some calls! My only fear is getting a dog tuba and not knowing enough to know it's a dog!!!

And I'd like to keep it below $2000, maybe more if I can sell the trumpet, cornet, and extra French horn I have in the closet!

Although I'm a newbie on this forum I'm a primary (and amateur) euphonium player who has been active and has learned a great deal on Dave Werden's forum. As a reformed trumpet player from back in the day I read treble euph parts. I studied piano from elementary through high school so reading both bass and treble clefs comes naturally. My ongoing mental block is an inability to play euphonium from bass clef parts and associate different fingerings with the notes. I currently double on a 4/4 CC and read the notes themselves so the fingerings for the notes is always the same as when I play treble euph. Although this is most likely not the way professionals would approach it, it works for me. Good luck in your quest!

As a bi-clefual euphonium player, I did the switch to Eb with the "transposition trick". It works OK until you get a piece in a key with lots of sharps, suited to singers or strings; then you get into double sharps and brain lock . It's not a bad option for getting into tuba quickly, but ultimately is a bit limiting: one day the director will say "give me a Bb" and you'll have to fumble. Also agree that an Eb with the right mouthpiece is a good all-round horn. Overall the best horn is the one you enjoy playing! Good luck.

The way I learned to read bass clef (after playing 7+ years on treble clef only) was to take bass clef music in ensembles I had to play and write the fingerings in smartly. If a line was stepwise I'd write the first fingering and leave the rest. If it was all over the place I'd write every other in. After a few rehearsals I'd start erasing fingerings. I made a lot of mistakes but got it down in an extremely short period of time where I could "read" bass clef music without fingerings.

I have to add a different approach altogether to throw into the mix.
A student of mine has a 4-valve comp Jupiter euphonium.
He plays in a brass brass sextet as the "utility" euphonium.
They asked him to join because they have a weaker tuba player.
What he does, though is mostly use his euph with a Shilke 51D mouthpiece.
If the part is very low, he has an old Conn "Standard" Eb mouthpiece (small shank tuba in euro shank euphonium) that I've given him.

Since a 4-valve comp euphonium is basically a Bb/F double euphonium, when he plays the tuba part, he uses his 4th valve and plays it like an F tuba (which is often used as the bass in a brass quintet).
Other times he reads the tuba part, but up an octave.
Still others (for sextets, etc.) he reads the euphonium part or plays a trombone part as written.

Just a thought. You'd still need to read bass clef or transpose everything...

If you have a 4-valve horn, there are a lot of possibilities!

Hello Euphomom,

I am also new to the tuba (coming from trumpet), and learned to read first in Eb on a borrowed tuba, and now on Bb on my own horn. I had never before read bass clef and I think I'm older than you since I'm retired and you are still working – so you can do it!

Anyway, between the two I think Bb is a much better choice (for me) because I can still play all my trumpet music (as well as treble clef euphonium music which I am also accumulating). Plus, I occasionally encounter treble clef tuba parts and these are easy to handle on a Bb tuba. If I was still playing the Eb I would be transposing.

You can find a good used tuba for under $2000, but you may have to rely on the expertise of someone you trust to check it out. It's very hard to do an informed evaluation on an instrument that feels new and strange.

Hup

E-mom:
Previous posters have given you good advice about tubas, especially testing and finding one you are comfortable with. I just wanted to add that I have been in your shoes (oops, I hope you don't wear high heels!). I started with trumpet, went to a euphonium when the school band had too many trumpets, and migrated to Eb tuba when there was no other tuba player.

After a long period of non-playing dormancy I bought a 4-valve Yamaha YEB321 when I retired and joined a community band. I found the 4th valve handy, since many band composers like to include a low A flat in their music. (A 3-valve tuba might be ok only if you have other tubists to take the lower notes you would have to play up an octave.) Although not a large tuba, it was plenty big enough for a 30 member band, even when the two other tubists weren't able to show up at a concert. Now that our band has almost doubled in size, I changed to a larger tuba. It makes louder OOM's, but requires some alternative fingerings to correct pitch problems that I didn't have with the Yammy.

The CC tuba solution you mention would be viable if you are comfortable reading bass clef, but they usually cost more than Eb or BBb tubas.

windshieldbug wrote:...
A student of mine has a 4-valve comp Jupiter euphonium.
He plays in a brass brass sextet as the "utility" euphonium.
They asked him to join because they have a weaker tuba player.
What he does, though is mostly use his euph with a Shilke 51D mouthpiece.
If the part is very low, he has an old Conn "Standard" Eb mouthpiece (small shank tuba in euro shank euphonium) that I've given him.

Since a 4-valve comp euphonium is basically a Bb/F double euphonium, when he plays the tuba part, he uses his 4th valve and plays it like an F tuba (which is often used as the bass in a brass quintet).
Other times he reads the tuba part, but up an octave.
Still others (for sextets, etc.) he reads the euphonium part or plays a trombone part as written.

With a large bore compensating euph and something like a Wick 3AL mouthpiece there is no need to play the tuba part up an octave. You can easily (and with reasonable facility) play chromatically to the second F below the bass clef staff -- which will cover most American tuba band parts. With some extra effort you can go lower and cover anything you're likely to encounter. It won't sound exactly like a tuba (more like a bass trombone), but it can work and be a lot of fun. For example, there is nothing in the Tuba Christmas Tuba 1 parts that you can't cover on a large bore compensating euph with the right mouthpiece. I'm not sure there's anything in the Tuba 2 parts you can't cover, but blending in with the Tuba 1 parts is a better effect. It is also fun to cover a bass trombone part with the euph and something like the 3AL. The 51D, of course, is much too small for such adventures.

My euphonium is non-compensating, and just because I can "hit" some of those low, low notes in the tuba range doesn't mean I should "play" them... because they sound pretty forced and unpleasant (when I play them that is!).

For the time being, while I look, I'm going to give learning the bass clef fingerings another serious go...that way I'll be in a better position to play a BBb, since they are (from my initial investigations) a little easier to find used at a decent price.

So, that being said...I'm looking for a 4-valve BBb, not really caring about the type or placement of valves... OR a CC if I can find a reasonably priced one.

Thanks!

Just a comment on clef learning, which I've done a lot of. (I read by pitch, not by fingering.)

It takes me three months to solidly learn a new clef. The way to do it is to sightread, sightread, sightread, so you can't sneak in and memorize what you did before.

I get the 12 hour days....but if you sight read ten or fifteen minutes a day, you'll find that it just happens over time.

Being a small female, I'd vote for the Eb, but you might have a lot more liters than I do. I did manage to produce decent enough sounds on a Miraphone 184 CC to be welcome in amateur orchestras, so if I can, you can. After the euph, though (which I still play) my 3/4 F tuba was less of a change in terms of air.

More valves is better. Ergonomics is extremely important.

MA

This is just a general while-you-are-looking-for-a-tuba comment. A lot of my recent tuba playing (after leaving the Coast Guard) was in my church brass group. I used my only tuba, which is the Sovereign compensating Eb.

More recently we had a personnel re-shuffle, and most of the time I need to cover higher parts (trombone 1 or euphonium) as well as one or two pieces on tuba parts. The euphonium I use is a large bore with a big sound, but I just don't feel like I'm giving the bass line what it needs. So while you CAN cover the parts on euphonium, it won't sound like a tuba. In some music that's just fine. Lighter works often "like" a lighter bass line.

I remember talking to Sam Pilafian while he was still in the Empire Brass. He was asking about brands of euphonium to buy, because there were often pieces in their programs where he thought the sound of a tuba was too heavy (no gasping, out there!).

So a euphonium can work, and it can be less than satisfying, depending.

Then we get into make/model. A quality non-comp typically blows more freely than some compensating horns. I know that's overly-broad, but in general the compensating system adds more bends and passages. So you may find getting the notes out easier with your non-comp. The trade-off is that a non-comp does not have a good concert Eb or B-natural in the range below F just under the bass clef staff. You need to be good at lipping pitch, or you can work with some creative fingerings/slide-pulls. But you CAN enhance the sound by using a much larger mouthpiece. I do that if I am only playing medium or low stuff, but I don't like the unfocused sound in the upper range.

Your quest for a tuba is a good idea, in my experience. If you can find a BBb or CC that you like and can manage physically, you'll have a more satisfying experience on those bass parts. Even with my Eb I really enjoyed planting the bottom of the chord or producing a nicely-moving bass line to help keep tempo going. (It didn't take me long to figure out why tuba players like their chosen instrument so much!)

I assume you've already poked around this forum on the topics about used horns and about the newer Chinese clones. That would be good background. Another consideration is the case or gig bag you will use. Again, lots of valuable discussion on this board. A former bandsman with me used to choose his new cars based on how his tuba(s) would fit, so unless you're going to stay home with the horn that is a consideration. Some cases offer great protection, but are huge and unwieldy. If you are testing a horn, one thing I would do is put it in its case and carry it, put it up on a table, and try some simulated into-the-trunk (or back seat) maneuvers with it. (At times when my back is acting up, I wish my Sovereign weren't so darned heavy!)

Hi Euphomom

I think learning bass clef would be good for both euphonium and BBb tuba. You could try getting a beginner BBb tuba book and working through it. That way you'd be starting off with only a couple of notes and working up from there, much easier than trying to learn every note on the instrument at once.

Try playing both EEb and BBb tubas and see which one feels best to you. Pitching BBb may come easier after Bb euphonium, although I've met many eupho players who double on EEb tuba. I think a compensating British style EEb would be capable of a lot more than a 3 valve or non compensating EEb. You can do a lot on even a 3 valve BBb as you can go pretty low without being all that low on the instrument itself.

I'm not that in love with the sound of the British EEB - they can sound a bit "vanilla" and hard depending on who's playing it. I think something like a Miraphone 186 BBb (orC) or King 2341 may give a more interesting, characteristic tuba sound.

Regards

Gerard