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Hello, I have used the search function with no avail but I am sure this has been discussed numerous times. I am trying to gain a better and more robust low register. I currently play a 4/4 BBb tuba and I can get down to E# with 123 or 24 but when I try to go lower chromatically I come to find I get out Eb-D until after I get below open (where it should be a pedal BBb) I lower my jaw as low as I think I can, is there anything I can try to do besides play more low notes? I know I will have to play a lot in order to fix this but I am looking for some advice on what to focus on or do. Currently I am not taking private lessons because school is not in session yet so I look here for help.
Thank you for all of your help, and for this site.
Dmeacham5

Low = slow air.

goodgigs wrote: Learn to play Db 1234 as a good strong note and then you will
be able to play the BBb in a while ( a week from now). The reason you aren't playing this note now is that you are using a
flattening embouchure to get the other low notes. This note - Peddle Bb is an important note in your development, says I because you can't use an off center (up and down that is) to play it. It forces you to blow stright into the back bore as demonstrated by the work of "Wilktone" on youtube. You just can't fake that note.

Oddly enough, this similar is how I eventually learned to play down there - Moving from FF to EEb then to DDb and centering the tone on each note. Moving in whole steps is easier on the brain than trying to do a chromatic scale when learning the notes.
Playing anything below FF (4th valve only) does require about 1.5" of extra pull compared to tuning the 4th valve for an in-tune C above BBb. I keep it there and I lip the C back up to pitch. That note is naturally sharp anyway so this is easy. My horn is also a little sharp on low F.
Here are my fingerings from pedal F down to pedal BBb (these should match the book fingerings): F-4; E-24; Eb-14; D-234; Db-134+1"; C-1234+2"; B-(n/a); BBb - Open.
I've found that I can manipulate 4th valve tuning slide enough to tune most of the notes down there on my particular horn.

goodgigs wrote:
BTW: to play the two notes that a 4 valve tuba can't play, you use what's know as "Privileged tones" (sometimes called "False tones").

BBB (Octave below BB natural, not BBBb) is the one note I can't get in tune on my horn. What other note is out of reach for a 4 valve Tuba?

J.c. Sherman wrote:Low = slow air.

Jay's right - you'll often hear that it takes more air to make a low note work. that's true but what most people miss is that that air must MOVE SLOWER. To elaborate, if you think of your airstream as a river, then a high note is a thin and fast-moving rapid, a mid-range note is a moderate creek that flows along, and a low note is the Amazon - you don't feel the motion but if you were to measure the amount of water moving, it's way more than the others.

Use air attacks ("hah" or "hu" etc.) to probe your way down there. Start comfortably mid range and try to make the note work without articulation and then work your way lower. The value of this excercise is it eliminates any 'helping' you might have been doing with your tongue to get the notes to come out (in a not so nice way). The note will not speak unless you give it the proper volume and speed of air. Allow your jaw to move how it needs to but don't force it.

Consider using 1-4 for E, 1-2-4 for Eb, 234 for D, 134 for Db, 1234 for C and 23 for B.

It may work just fine. I tried this after a long time doing the previous suggestion, and with my particular horn and mouthpiece it seems to be a worthy system. I don't get involved with my slides doing this.

This kind of practice takes a lot of patience.

goodgigs wrote:

NCSUSousa wrote: Playing anything below FF (4th valve only) does require about 1.5" of extra pull

I'm sorry, I can't let that go !
I don't want to sound rude, but no way Jose.
My tuba has a thirteen inch slide and it's around ten inches out to play what you're talking about.
My tuba is pitched in CC so all the values are one note higher, but my point is even with 13" I can't quite reach C#.

I'm afraid you're just going to have to let it go. There's no reason to be that far off on your fingerings.
For reference (since I didn't link them in my first post on this thread):
http://mctuba.com/studio/fingerchart/tubabbfinger.pdf
http://www.norlanbewley.com/tuba/fingering-tuba-1.htm

If you're 4th slide is already out 10", then something's not quite right.
My 4th slide usually sits ~3.5" out. At 2" out, I get C in tune. At 3.5" out I get EEb in tune with just 14. With another +2" on 1234, I can get pedal CC. My ONLY major difference compared to the fingering charts linked above is that I'm playing EEb with 14 and a bit of pull.

Edit 1 - Here's a fingering chart that works like mine: http://www.cyberwindsmusic.com/uploads/ ... _valve.pdf

EDIT 2 - Just realized that you're talking about converting notes from CC. Db is your out of reach note (equal to concert BB on my BBb tuba). See the fingering charts.

For low register playing in general, to quote Alan Baer, get your face into the mouthpiece. Lets not worry about fingerings just yet.

Stick your lower lip out as if you were pouting. Now stick your upper lip out as well. This exposes the soft inner tissue of the ool which will have a slower bounce allowing the lip to vibrate slower and produce the slow, lower frequencies. Your air should be going just about straight forward. Spend a bit of time working on this with just the mouthpiece.

For fingerings in that register to start with use false tones ( privileged tones). The pedal Eb on a BBb tuba can be played open and ginger down from there chromatically and you will find that you can play a pedal B natural this way. Soft air is the key. If you use fast air you will just blow the lips apart and nothing will come out. Work in this register softly in the beginning to get used to the feel and then slowly start increasing the volume and the sound should remain stable.

Let me know if you have any other questions that I can help with.

All the best.
Roger

One should also examine the TH shift for the low register but I recommend that you learn them he way they are"" "supposed to be" I the beginning. To really get goid in that register I spent 3 hours a day down there. So it ain't simple. But once you get the hang of it you will be amazed at how musically you can play in that register once your body figures out the gimmick.

Have fun.
Roger

bump

Roger Lewis wrote:One should also examine the TH shift for the low register but I recommend that you learn them he way they are"" "supposed to be" I the beginning. To really get goid in that register I spent 3 hours a day down there. So it ain't simple. But once you get the hang of it you will be amazed at how musically you can play in that register once your body figures out the gimmick.

Have fun.
Roger

What exactly is a TH shift, Mr. Lewis? You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention.

.

Trying to post on a smartphone can be a challenge. That was supposed to be the TJ shift. The great Tommy Johnson picked this up I believe from a trombone player. You shift the mouthpiece up on the embouchure to allow the upper lip more room to vibrate on a wider arc as it would need to for low frequency vibrations. I use a different method where I shift the mouthpiece down and let the lower lip vibrate for the extreme low register.

The British brass band players are very adept at this since those older, smaller bore Bessons are extremely challenging to play in the low register.

I can play all the way down with a traditional embouchure but the shift allows for greater power in the pedal register.

Just experiment with it a bit. Pete Link learned to do it in about two hours and uses it quite effectively.

All the best to you.
Roger

Thank you, I have been trying the suggestions and some of them are helping. I did lower my embouchure and it did help slightly. I feel some may have been confused on my problem, whenever I tried to play low Eb and lower on using these fingerings 1+4 (Eb), 2+3+4 (D), 1+3+4 (Db), 1+2+3+4 (C) the only note that will come out of my horn is Eb. I play with an open jaw and "loose" or "relaxed" as much as I can. I also can it pedal BBb although I have to play it 23, I hit pedal G though I played it 1+4. I have been able to play the note itself for about a year although it hasn't gotten easier. The reason for this thread is to ask advice so I can play 234 and a D comes out. I would like to thank Roger Lewis because his advice has helped a lot, and also thank you to everyone else who posted

One additional thought:
Some horns are designed on the Bill Bell idea that every valve slide should be out just a bit to be in-tune for an average player because that gives them all some push-in room.
My horn was designed this way. As a result, I have to pull all of my valve slides out just a bit (even 2nd valve) for notes below BBb to be in tune.
Until I started doing this, I found it very difficult to play low. Now, no problem.
I leave them there now because it has also helped my intonation above BBb.

Not all horns are designed this way so you may not need it, but your description sounds alot like the issues I had when I first started venturing into the pedal tones.

my first recommendation is to get a teacher. you don't want to add bad habits now that are going take a long time to get rid of. a good teacher will guide you through the process.

i was lucky in that my long range was not a problem even when i was younger. my problem was playing high because the literature that i played did not required me to play in that range.
when i got into college, i was behind every one else because i could not play the more advanced literature. and my confidence dropped.

my suggestion is to work on your scales in that particular range every day. i do the same but going higher to my highest note and i always keep trying to extend my comfort zone.


never compromise your sound quality. find you best sounding note and copy it to next below and above.

Robust? So you want a manlier lower register? I can help in that. Remember askin the guys here about this a few months ago.
Mouthpiece doesn't matter, air and chops do. And false tones, can be tricky. I can play a low e flat, pedal C and B on my Sousa and my 4 valve tuba. Its all about lip positioning.

And for more power, air air air! And work on your chops. Find some low register studies to work on. And if ya want...(the guys here are probably good to rage here haha), find some HBCU tuba sections. What makes those sections good is their power in the low register.

I've seen people who can't play low even with lips in the correct, pouted position. This doesn't sound like your problem but I'll chime in anyway. I had to "blast" my chops loose. Coming from a small mouthpiece instrument, the old lips just didn't wanna flap no matter what position I had them in. "Blasting" (using the opposite air that one is supposed to, blowing REALLY HARD to force my lips to flap instead of just sit there tensed as for high range,) did it for me, and now they are loosey-goosey on demand. Advice worth what you paid for it.

MA

Ouch. Can't say I recommend that, MaryAnn, but I'm glad it worked for you.