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Do you find it difficult to switch back and forth between the two, or does it eventually become second nature?

Not too difficult, assuming you pick up each instrument from time to time and 'dust off' those fingerings.

For me it depends. Back when both my Eb and F tubas were 4 piston 1 rotor horns I had a very hard time. Now my Eb is a 3+1 and my F is 4 in the right hand and 5th in the left and I have no problems going back and forth. I play all four normal keys and they all have different valves set ups (BBb 3 piston, CC 5 all in right hand, Eb 3+1, and F 4+1). Now that they all have different valve set ups each key is like its own setting in my mind. It works for me.

bububassboner wrote:Now that they all have different valve set ups each key is like its own setting in my mind.

+1
This is exactly how it works for me switching among CC, BBb and Eb. Setups are all different so each one occupies its own territory. Currently learning F. We'll see how that fits in.
Good Luck!
Pete

So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

Just takes five minutes to switch, not a big deal.

I 'stumble' for a few measures but the fingerings settle down pretty quickly. Funny... I used to play an Eb for Dixieland stuff and a BBb for German and concert band music. Once engrained... I had a hell of a time using a BBb for Dixieland!

Actually... I think I have a tougher time simply moving from ANY five-valved horn to a three-valved horn!

UncleBeer wrote:So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

I think that's because trumpets generally don't. At least as far as I know, if a piece calls for C trumpet, it's played on a C trumpet. If the piece calls for a Bb trumpet, it's played on a Bb trumpet, etc., so the transposing isn't done by the trumpet player, i.e. a written C is always played open, regardless of the key the horn's in.

darthminimall wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

I think that's because trumpets generally don't. At least as far as I know, if a piece calls for C trumpet, it's played on a C trumpet. If the piece calls for a Bb trumpet, it's played on a Bb trumpet, etc., so the transposing isn't done by the trumpet player, i.e. a written C is always played open, regardless of the key the horn's in.

If you'd like another example, think of horn players. Transposing, not "using different fingerings".

darthminimall wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

I think that's because trumpets generally don't. At least as far as I know, if a piece calls for C trumpet, it's played on a C trumpet. If the piece calls for a Bb trumpet, it's played on a Bb trumpet, etc., so the transposing isn't done by the trumpet player, i.e. a written C is always played open, regardless of the key the horn's in.

Trumpet players *should* be able to transpose...after all, they don't always have a D trumpet on hand, when they need it!

I suppose so. I think the whole "different fingerings" over transposition thing stems from the fact that if a trumpet player or horn player etc. is transposing, it's probably just for one piece (at least at that time). When playing a different key tuba, though, you're more likely to be playing a lot of pieces on the same horn, so rather than thinking, "that's a Bb which is fingered like a concert C" or whatever, they just think "this is the fingering for a Bb on this horn". It also could stem from the fact that trumpet and horn are transposing instruments while tuba is a non-transposing instrument (excluding British-style brass bands, and in those cases, may BBb players will transpose the Eb parts)

I think that the difference is really that our parts are always in C, so we are never sounding a different pitch, than the note we are looking at.

darthminimall wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

I think that's because trumpets generally don't. At least as far as I know, if a piece calls for C trumpet, it's played on a C trumpet. If the piece calls for a Bb trumpet, it's played on a Bb trumpet, etc., so the transposing isn't done by the trumpet player, i.e. a written C is always played open, regardless of the key the horn's in.

This is not at all how it works. An orchestral trumpet player (those are the ones who transpose the most) will select an instrument based on the sound required. In US orchestras, that is usually a C, transposable to whatever key the music is written in. Occasionally trumpets will be selected in other keys, such as Bb, Eb, D, cornet in Bb, etc. to achieve a different sound, but it has nothing to do with what key the music is written in, and the player will still probably have to transpose to play the music correctly.

In the days before valves, trumpet players had to change keys by changing crooks (or I suppose changing instruments) and you can run across old music in which the instrument changes key several times. However, today no one changes the instrument when that happens – you simply change the transposition.

That said, there are occasional modern pieces where a composer has envisioned the sound of a particular keyed instrument and written specifically for it, for example the D trumpet part in West Side Story. However, even here the player has the option of selecting, for instance, an Eb trumpet if that is the instrument he happens to feel will be better for the part.

Hup

I'm an Eb guy at heart but only play F anymore. So, not only does low range sight reading catch me a little, I'm still thinking Eb sound and feel. On new, not written down music, I usually go into whatever that funky transposition/scale/feel/quasi-panic thing is that I do. Oh well.

hup_d_dup wrote:

darthminimall wrote:

UncleBeer wrote:So funny that we can't consider this transposition, as trumpet players do. For us it's "using different fingerings".

I think that's because trumpets generally don't. At least as far as I know, if a piece calls for C trumpet, it's played on a C trumpet. If the piece calls for a Bb trumpet, it's played on a Bb trumpet, etc., so the transposing isn't done by the trumpet player, i.e. a written C is always played open, regardless of the key the horn's in.

This is not at all how it works. An orchestral trumpet player (those are the ones who transpose the most) will select an instrument based on the sound required. In US orchestras, that is usually a C, transposable to whatever key the music is written in. Occasionally trumpets will be selected in other keys, such as Bb, Eb, D, cornet in Bb, etc. to achieve a different sound, but it has nothing to do with what key the music is written in, and the player will still probably have to transpose to play the music correctly.

In the days before valves, trumpet players had to change keys by changing crooks (or I suppose changing instruments) and you can run across old music in which the instrument changes key several times. However, today no one changes the instrument when that happens – you simply change the transposition.

That said, there are occasional modern pieces where a composer has envisioned the sound of a particular keyed instrument and written specifically for it, for example the D trumpet part in West Side Story. However, even here the player has the option of selecting, for instance, an Eb trumpet if that is the instrument he happens to feel will be better for the part.

Hup

Your post is excellent, Hup. That's the way orchestral trumpet players handle things. -Ace

I'm with Bob.

Reading is fine on all 4, improvising in Bb, then C or Eb. F ... requires concentration.

No issues here. It's a matter of repetition, time, patience, and listening.

As a hornist, reading different transpositions is just something we do. One reason I never took up the clarinet was that I knew I'd eventually have to have an A clarinet, and then have to learn a completely different set of fingerings to read the music, that were only a half step off form the Bb fingerings. Too much....it was bad enough having to learn a set of fingerings that were a fifth off with English horn compared to oboe. I'll stick with the horn, thanks, millions of transpositions but only two sets of fingerings that never change. Unless of course you are playing stopped....but I can write those in, and I do.

bububassboner wrote:For me it depends. Back when both my Eb and F tubas were 4 piston 1 rotor horns I had a very hard time. Now my Eb is a 3+1 and my F is 4 in the right hand and 5th in the left and I have no problems going back and forth. I play all four normal keys and they all have different valves set ups (BBb 3 piston, CC 5 all in right hand, Eb 3+1, and F 4+1). Now that they all have different valve set ups each key is like its own setting in my mind. It works for me.

That's what I could have used my freshman year in college - two Tubas with different valve setups. The Band Director (a Saxophonist) insisted I continue to play Bb Tuba in Band while learning CC Tuba for everything else. According to him, having a CC Tuba on the bottom of a Bb band would "wreck" the group's intonation. Since both of the school horns I used were four rotor horns of comparable size, what his erroneous "notion" wrecked was my nerves - I regularly got confused about fingerings and had to stop to think which horn I had in my hands at the time. After a quarter (it was a quarters college) of that hassle, I finally disobeyed him and started playing the CC Tuba in Band. It took almost a month before he caught on. Since he'd never complained about my intonation during that month, so much for his notion....