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I was just poking around to see how my benefits and pay compares to some of the big ISCOM orchestras. Here is some of the stuff I came up with.

New guy in a Washington, DC special band without a dependent makes about $42,000/year. With a dependent that climbs to about $47,000/year. Because of military tax breaks and other perks like the commissary the salaries compare to $50,000+ in civilian dollars fairly easily.

That covers the bare bottom starting salary.

Now let's go to top salaries for enlisted musicians.

An E-9 with 26 years and a dependent in a Washington, DC service band makes over $91,000/year. Again a big chunk of that is not even taxed, namely about $28,000 of it is tax free. That alone has got to be worth $9,000-$11,000 in taxes, SS, etc. Lets call the top salary equivalent to $100,000/year civilian.

That E-9 retires with about $47,000/year in retirement pay if they are on the 75% of base pay after 30 years service plan. Even at 50% of base pay you are looking at about $31,000/year for the rest of their lives. Also throw in full medical and dental at VERY cheap rates and it ain't so bad.

You can find the above info here and here:
https://secureapp2.hqda.pentagon.mil/perdiem/bah.html
http://www.dfas.mil/money/milpay/pay/paytable2005.pdf

I also went to the AFM website and pulled the starting base salaries in the ISCOM orchestras. Out of the big 48 ISCOM orchestras only about 50% payed more than Washington, DC special bands do to their starting musicians. Perhaps I misread how the seniority pay is done in these orchestras, but I only noticed maybe 11 or so who was paying their most senior musicians $100,000+/year. That is about 25% of the ISCOM 48.

The chart with the ISCOM salaries is here
http://www.chisham.com/realjob/orchestras.html

So next time someone tries to convince you that all the big money is only in orchestras needs to recheck their figures.

WoodSheddin wrote:I was just poking around to see how my benefits and pay compares to some of the big ISCOM orchestras. Here is some of the stuff I came up with......

I know nothing about big salaries as I am just an amateur player and a lowly repairman. I'm curious though.... I know it is customary for a professional musician to not only play in a solid band or orchestra but also do gigs and teaching on the side. Are there any regulations or restrictions (either written or by shear lack of 'free time') to prevent a service musician from doing the same.

harold wrote:Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single person that had a gig in a military band and left the service early to find their fortunes elsewhere.

There are many many who have done this. Just in tubas alone here are a few.
Pat Sheridan
David Zerkel
Mike Forbes
Tim Northcut
Daniel Perantoni
Chester Schmidt
Jim Self
Harvey Phillips
Marty Erickson

I am sure there are lots I am forgetting. But in general, you are correct. Most stay in cause the job ain't half bad. The musical satisfaction/challenge/growth on the part of the musicians themselves can be terribly lacking, but the job itself and the vast majority of the people are awesome.

In any other section of the military, people with the same kind of educational background would be commissioned as officers.

Some of the European bands make their musicians warrant officers for this very reason. Here in the states the special bands get E-6 starting.

harold wrote:I don't know if the reguations have changed, but there is no doubt that most free-lance guys would hate to have federally subsidized competitors.

This is why you are not allowed to use military equipment on civilian gigs.

As long as you follow the rules of the UCMJ you are free to earn money on the side. Just show up for work and do your job and your free time is yours to take gigs, teach, work as a security guard, whatever.

harold wrote:I'm not absolutely certain, but I think that some of these guys didn't ELECT to go into the service

All of those I listed were volunteers. The older ones on the list volunteered to avoid Vietnam, but they were all volunteers I believe.

bloke wrote:

WoodSheddin wrote:

harold wrote:Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single person that had a gig in a military band and left the service early to find their fortunes elsewhere.

There are many many who have done this. Just in tubas alone here are a few.
Pat Sheridan
David Zerkel
Mike Forbes
Tim Northcut
Daniel Perantoni
Chester Schmidt
Jim Self
Harvey Phillips
Marty Erickson

At the risk of appearing to argue both sides (as I agreed with your original point), I don't see a ton of full time orchestra musicians listed here...

He said "fortunes" not "orchestra". Each year there might be 1-3 openings in orchestras which pay as much as the special bands. These openings are very competitive.

Those who can join an orchestra, those who can't join a premier band.

Hey,
Sure the money is good, the benefits are great (especially in the premiere bands) but there are still many sacrifices (not that there aren't in the "real" world). I love my paycheck and benefits, but I've been counting my days since 2002. For me, I'll take a big paycut, have no job security and possibly be poor in trade for my freedom and happiness back.
When I talk to people about getting out of the Military, the questions that come up are:
what are you going to do?
do you think that you are that good?
the world is tough out there,
how are you expecting to make a living?
come on man, the pay, the benfits, how can you beat that?
Where are you going to go?
Which, if you listen to those questions carefully, there is a level of cohersian going on there. If you watch any of those TV movies about battered wives, the questions are almost verbatim.
FWIW if you went special forces as an officer, went to combat the pay is astromonical. You would pay no taxes for the time spent in the combat zone and hazard duty pay, plus all the perks you make being over there you will come out way ahead. A guy from the band here in Korea went to Iraq with his old unit and as an E5 (SGT) he was making about $600 a month on top of what he was already making, paying no taxes and having nothing to spend money on his expenses were very low. But, again the trade offs are not worth the money to me.
NOW, having said all of that the people who have served (especailly in the Army) will call my character into question. If you would like you can explore the archives and anytime there is anything said that might be seen as bad about service the answers are:
It's all what you make it
the people who point out what is wrong and offer solutions are usually the people who can't hang
the people who point out what is wrong and offer solutions are trouble makers
the people who point out what is wrong and offer solutions are usually bad at thier jobs
all they do is make life bad for people around them
(please check some of the archives) or if you are a member of the service you can go to the Army Bands Intranet to see all the people who want to effect positive change being cut down at the knees.
SO, please refrain from assasination.
OK, having said all of that, if the Service is for you (and it's not for everyone and there is NO SHAME IN THAT) then it can be amazing. Like Sean said the pay is great, in the case of the premire bands (which isn't always the case in some of the line bands) you are surrounded by good musicians and with a great command team (THIS IS CRUCIAL) you can have a great time, make some great music and in the case of the band in DC put on an amazing tuba conference!!!! Joining the service is a decision that anyone considering it should think long and hard about it and talk to as many people as you can, figure out what the ups and downs are, what to expect what not to expect and match those to you goals. If they marry up you have a match made in heaven, but just like marriage not everyone would be happy with the same person. I hate to use it here because the band field is not trash, but one man's trash is anothers treasure. I wish all people the best of luck in their carreer path, Sean I'm so happy for you that you really love your job. I hope everyone finds contentment in their jobs (tuba and non-tuba) and be provided with the neccesities to sustain a happy life for them and their families.
Sorry that was so long,
Bill Pritchard

I know about a dozen musicians who left "permier" service bands. I regularly work with two who left after their initial enlistment was up. When I first asked them why they left, I heard this beautiful answer for the first time, "Military music is to music as military justice is to justice."

If playing half a concert of pop stuff and all of military BS doesn't bother you after 4 years, it's a great gig.

Alex C wrote:I know about a dozen musicians who left "permier" service bands. I regularly work with two who left after their initial enlistment was up. When I first asked them why they left, I heard this beautiful answer for the first time, "Military music is to music as military justice is to justice."

If playing half a concert of pop stuff and all of military BS doesn't bother you after 4 years, it's a great gig.

Hold on there Skippy, I'll give a rundown of some of the composers and pieces I played yesterday in a military band concert:

Prokofiev - Love of Three Oranges
Ives - it's all the same
Hartley - Concerto for 23 Winds
Barber - Symphony Numero Uno
Respighi - a little piece we know as "Fountains"

Hmmmm..... not pop music, unless by pop you mean "POPular with tuba players". If so you are correct, sir.

Cameron "more pop music" Gates

Sean, thanks for posting the chart of ISCOM salaries. Is it possible to post pages 2 & 3 of the chart? I'm guessing they detail other categories which would be interesting to see and compare.

Prokofiev - Love of Three Oranges
Ives - it's all the same
Hartley - Concerto for 23 Winds
Barber - Symphony Numero Uno
Respighi - a little piece we know as "Fountains"

I play in an Army National Band. Our "job" is not to enlighten the audience for arts sake but to provide musical support for the state. If we could play this list of music this weekend, I'd be in heaven, but instead we're going to play a gig where we provide pre music for 30 minutes (about 6 marches, Americans We one more time), the SSB, and the Army Song. Not exactly Fountains. But not a bad job for about $100 a day with a hour rehearsal and listening to long, drawn out speeches before we head back to the armory and a free lunch and dinner. If playing "real music" is your thing and you don't need free tuition or another retirement check, find another musical outlet.

I get to play "meat" in our community band where on the list is next concert- 1812 (the Lake version), Iannaccone- After a Genle Rain, Dahl- Sinfonietta, Gould- West Point Symphony, you know, your typical Community band Pops concert.

One must remember in these times that we are talking about the premier US forces Bands and not the rank and file Army Bands. I had a perfectly tear jerking picture, (which I can't find), of the 1st Cav Band doing a Change of Command Ceremony on sand in Iraq.
They don't have time for much anything except praying, and we should be doing some of it for them as well.

Cameron Gates wrote:Hold on there Skippy, I'll give a rundown of some of the composers and pieces I played yesterday in a military band concert:

Prokofiev - Love of Three Oranges
Ives - it's all the same
Hartley - Concerto for 23 Winds
Barber - Symphony Numero Uno
Respighi - a little piece we know as "Fountains"

Hmmmm..... not pop music, unless by pop you mean "POPular with tuba players". If so you are correct, sir.

Cameron "more pop music" Gates

The Marine Band is more premier than the other premier bands regardless of what some in the other bands like to say at times. The excuses I hear about how "Our Band" is just as good or better than the "Marine Band" could fill a book. Musically speaking you guys got it made next to all the other military bands and even compared to a large number of the premier orchestras.

The military isn't for everyone. I am happier as a civilian, but do miss aspects of the job in the band.

What it came down to for me was that, in my mind, there was a litany of things that were important than music. I needed a job where music was more important than my hair, my weight, the number of sit-ups that I could do, how pressed my uniform was, etc.

It was also tough to tolerate having the least qualified musician in the band as the conductor.

I took a big pay cut to leave the band. I will likely never catch up to the earning curve, but am happier outside of the group. I have nothing but respect for the people who can stick out a career in the military. It just wasn't for me. I couldn't reconcile being associated with a culture whose primary role was to kill people and break things into tiny little pieces.

Having said this, I do miss the great players and the opportunity to perform in a vital arts city like DC.

Sean,

Is E9 really an achievable rank in 20 years or so? When I was in the Air Force [late 60's], E9's were few and far between (we called them 'zebra sergeants').

David Zerkel wrote:
It was also tough to tolerate having the least qualified musician in the band as the conductor.

Isn't orchestral life fairly similar?

I cannot remember how many teachers I have had that complained about their "maestros".

Tubadork wrote: I love my paycheck and benefits, but I've been counting my days since 2002. For me, I'll take a big paycut, have no job security and possibly be poor in trade for my freedom and happiness back.

Congrats on not getting flamed....I feel the same way you do, but fir ne it's not about playing professsionally, it's about my really cushy desk job. I am counting the days until I can retire (6.5 YEARS,) and not at all sure I'm going to make it to that day without just walking out of this little cubicle jail cell.

It's about values, which don't seem to be changeable. If you value money and job security above freedom to do what you want when you want, then that secure job is for you. If you value your freedom and would much rather scramble to make a living instead of punching a clock or the white-collar equivalent, then maybe that secure job is not for you.

When you approach retirement age your options take on different flavors....what would have been easy to give up at 35 is not so easy at 55, values or no values.

MA, holding herself in check so far

Cameron... my name isn't Skippy.

I'm glad you are in a military band which doesn't play any schlock. My Marine Band and Navy Band friends gripe about it all the time.

My comment wasn't meant to denigrate any service band, only to point out what I had been told. If you have a gripe, I'll give their e-mail.

MaryAnn wrote:If you value money and job security above freedom to do what you want when you want, then that secure job is for you. If you value your freedom and would much rather scramble to make a living instead of punching a clock or the white-collar equivalent, then maybe that secure job is not for you.

Before I joined The U.S. Army Band I was driving a cubicle for 40 hrs/week plus time spent at home advancing my Internet skill sets. I was offered an entry level management position just before I left and am certain that by now I would have been WELL into the 6 figures.

I took a pay cut of roughly 50% when I put down the router and picked up the Sousaphone. As much as I may bitch and moan about how my job has little to no musical challenge, it has a lot more than that Sun Workstation.

Perhaps I am acclimated. Perhaps I have gone numb. Whatever the reasons I believe and hope that I am moving past the dark days of resenting the musical/political apparatus. Frustration and anger feed themselves.

Lately I have been finding serenity in grinding the axe sharper each day behind a tuner and metronome.

I am always happiest when my definition of success revolves around the sound of the music itself instead of winning prestige.

harold wrote:Military bands don't rely on audience and community participation to pay the bills like most orchestras. Their budgets are not restricted based on community support.
...
With that said, there is also probably no other segment of the military service where the enlisted members have nearly as much education. In any other section of the military, people with the same kind of educational background would be commissioned as officers.

It would he hard to fully support your first statement, given that the military bands do not sell tickets to their performances. In terms of audience size, they might do better than many orchestras. Military bands also do not solicit donations as do all orchestras. But I've never noticed an orchestra not happy to get any chunk of taxpayer money they can latch onto.

Military bands perform two categories of service, from my outside perspective. The first is ceremonial, in that music supports esprit de corps in the various ceremonies of military life. This is a service to the soldiers that improves morale, and can therefore be linked directly to military effectiveness.

Military bands also perform considerable community service, which raises the profile of the military across the board. If orchestras provided as much community service (and I know they provide a lot), it would be one of their prime objectives, rather than something they do because they should. They don't "go to the people" to perform in the way military bands do.

So, yes, military bands are funded as part of the military program through tax dollars, but they provide a specific service to the military, and, by extension, to the taxpayers who want to be defended. Their community service activities might get them about as much support from tax money as does the community service of orchestras, with the exception that the military bands do a lot more of it.

And let's not overestimate the size of military bands. E-6's starting out make what would not be easy to live on in the DC area, yet only in DC (with very few exceptions) do military bands pay at the E-6 level for those starting out. The average musician in a post band doesn't do as well, I wouldn't expect.

As to your point about most musicians in the premiere bands having advanced college degrees in support of their activity, and that such college training would get them a commission in most other military occupations, I agree. But they probably would not get paid that much more.

Rick "knowing experienced officers who drool at the thought of an E-9 salary" Denney