TubeNet

I know this may sound stupid but can anyone give me some tips.

Why?
The diaphragm is only used on the inhale. I don't see how making it stronger will help your tuba playing. Now if you think that you have to push with your diaphragm while playing I would suggest researching how the diaphragm actually works. You might learn a thing or two.

bububassboner wrote:Why?
The diaphragm is only used on the inhale. I don't see how making it stronger will help your tuba playing. Now if you think that you have to push with your diaphragm while playing I would suggest researching how the diaphragm actually works. You might learn a thing or two.

Researching how the diaphragm actually works isn't a bad idea and could be a real eye-opener for those who have never dipped into the literature themselves but are simply repeating what they've been taught by their teachers.

There's a LOT of seriously outdated, if not flat out wrong, beliefs about the function of the diaphragm floating around in music circles, including the beliefs that it's only used to inhale and that it's strictly an involuntary muscle.

The current consensus in the fields of physiological and respiratory research (see the articles linked here) is that:

a) The diaphragm is used in both inspiration and expiration. Conscious, forced exhalations, such as when speaking, coughing, sighing, or spitting, are examples of the latter; and

b) The diaphragm can be controlled BOTH voluntarily AND involuntarily. Autonomic contraction and elastic rebound of the diaphragm ("breathing reflex") is the primary example of involuntary control (retching, hiccoughing, and burping are other examples). Holding your breath (consciously resisting the contraction/rebound) is an example of voluntary control; other examples of voluntary control of the diaphragm include intentionally increasing or decreasing the rate at which you breath (number of breaths per minute), consciously regulating the speed of inhalation and exhalation (e.g. "slow air to play low, fast air to play high"), and consciously controlling the depth of inspiration/expiration (e.g., sniff breathing vs. a full breath). (Granted, the diaphragm does not work in isolation from the abdominals, intercostals, and accessory muscles to respiration; and, granted, you have considerably more control over the abdominals and intercostals than the diaphragm; but neither changes the fact that the diaphragm works in both inspiration and expiration, and can be controlled voluntarily.)

So it's at least possible that strengthening the diaphragm could result in better regulation/control of one's air flow, which would be beneficial to one's playing. I would presume, though, that it would be more beneficial to strengthen all the musculature of respiration rather than just the diaphragm.

Work out, go running, and lose as much belly fat as possible. I can't say that will specifically help your diaphragm, but you will look and feel better, and it will certainly help you.

In the brass world, there is a lot on misinformation about the diaphragm. I have heard many fine players say the diaphragm is near the navel - not! It is at the base of the sternum. There are those who say you push air out with the diaphragm - not! It is a one way muscle that only lowers for inhalation. There are those that say "Support with the Diaphragm" - a physical impossibility! As far as strengthening the diaphragm, it is an involuntary muscle with no sensory nerves - can't be done!

bububassboner wrote:Why?
The diaphragm is only used on the inhale. I don't see how making it stronger will help your tuba playing. Now if you think that you have to push with your diaphragm while playing I would suggest researching how the diaphragm actually works. You might learn a thing or two.

I bet you've been waiting to drop that one for a while

A stronger inhale can certainly improve tuba playing just by virtue of getting a full breath faster with greater efficiency. We both know what OP really means by his question...

pgym wrote:

bububassboner wrote:Why?
The diaphragm is only used on the inhale. I don't see how making it stronger will help your tuba playing. Now if you think that you have to push with your diaphragm while playing I would suggest researching how the diaphragm actually works. You might learn a thing or two.

Researching how the diaphragm actually works isn't a bad idea and could be a real eye-opener for those who have never dipped into the literature themselves but are simply repeating what they've been taught by their teachers.

There's a LOT of seriously outdated, if not flat out wrong, beliefs about the function of the diaphragm floating around in music circles, including the beliefs that it's only used to inhale and that it's strictly an involuntary muscle.

The current consensus in the fields of physiological and respiratory research (see the articles linked here) is that:

a) The diaphragm is used in both inspiration and expiration. Conscious, forced exhalations, such as when speaking, coughing, sighing, or spitting, are examples of the latter; and

b) The diaphragm can be controlled BOTH voluntarily AND involuntarily. Autonomic contraction and elastic rebound of the diaphragm ("breathing reflex") is the primary example of involuntary control (retching, hiccoughing, and burping are other examples). Holding your breath (consciously resisting the contraction/rebound) is an example of voluntary control; other examples of voluntary control of the diaphragm include intentionally increasing or decreasing the rate at which you breath (number of breaths per minute), consciously regulating the speed of inhalation and exhalation (e.g. "slow air to play low, fast air to play high"), and consciously controlling the depth of inspiration/expiration (e.g., sniff breathing vs. a full breath). (Granted, the diaphragm does not work in isolation from the abdominals, intercostals, and accessory muscles to respiration; and, granted, you have considerably more control over the abdominals and intercostals than the diaphragm; but neither changes the fact that the diaphragm works in both inspiration and expiration, and can be controlled voluntarily.)

So it's at least possible that strengthening the diaphragm could result in better regulation/control of one's air flow, which would be beneficial to one's playing. I would presume, though, that it would be more beneficial to strengthen all the musculature of respiration rather than just the diaphragm.

I've never ever heard of anyone suggesting that the diaphragm is only involuntary; that notion is absurd to anyone with half a brain. The fact of the mater is this: muscles flat out do not go both ways--they only work one way, period. Yes, the elastic rebound will aid us in exhaling for normal life sustaining exhalation after the the diaphragm is used to inhale, but to "blow" air out (as tubists do), as opposed to "letting" it out is with the abdominal muscles. All of the expensive verbiage in the world won't change that simple fact.

So, anyway, OP to answer the question that you are driving at to enhance your breathing beyond the recommended daily practice, you can just treat it like you would treat other muscles of your body through cardiovascular exercise and resistance training. For cardio, athletes will run, bike, row, swim etc. and for resistance training, they will "lift weights." I personally find that running benefits my breathing the best, but that's me. I also like riding my bike, but it never makes me gasp for air... For the resistance part, you can use something like this http://www.mouthpieceexpress.com/catalo ... s_id=19117 or you can get creative--I like to blow up an air-mattress; it's a great way to strengthen your breathing power while teaching you, strictly by pure repetition, how to take great breaths as efficiently as possible and with the least amount of wasted motion.

A very important and often overlooked thing to consider is that just taking care of your body in general will give you a platform to reach your potential in such fine motor actives as playing the tuba. Good luck.

brianf wrote:In the brass world, there is a lot on misinformation about the diaphragm. I have heard many fine players say the diaphragm is near the navel - not! It is at the base of the sternum. There are those who say you push air out with the diaphragm - not! It is a one way muscle that only lowers for inhalation. There are those that say "Support with the Diaphragm" - a physical impossibility! As far as strengthening the diaphragm, it is an involuntary muscle with no sensory nerves - can't be done!

K, I guess there is a first time for everything

Let's think about this. . .the diaphragm flattens out to inhale to max and strengthening it beyond that will only help it resist exhalation when the abdominals press on it. Far easier to just use the abdominals a little less to press. And that is probably what happens when we regulate exhalations. If you want more breath pressure, strengthening the abdominals and intercostals to push is probably more important. If you need more breath volume, expanding more in the intercostals is probably your goal. Regardless of the exact muscles used, something like Pilafian's The Breathing Gym is probably the go-to book for exercises. Any kind of aerobic exercise is probably helpful. Getting fit and getting the fat out of your gut is probably fine for starters . . .

One thing to keep in mind is that you likely have all the strength necessary to play at a very high level. The amount of air pressure required for even extreme registers on the tuba are well within the body's average capacities and doesn't really require specific training. That said, being physically fit will make your life easier.

I challenge anyone to drop the diaphragm muscle alone without taking a breath. Cannot be done! Yes, you can lower the diaphragm by taking a breath but cannot control the diaphragm itself.

So what are you controlling when you voluntarily inhale and hold it there, if not the diaphragm?

To clarify: The body has both voluntary and involuntary control over the respiratory system; that is to say under control of both the autonomic nervous system and conscious control. The diaphragm accounts from roughly 75 percent of the total muscular engagement during inhalation (and no, cannot be controled in isolation, though respiration as a whole can be). Natural exhalation is almost entirely based on the relaxation of the diaphragm (among other muscles) and while exhalation can be managed by controlling the rate of relaxation, the diaphragm contributes nothing to the 'strength' of the exhalation. Forceful exhalation results from the intercostals and abdominal muscles.

brianf wrote:I challenge anyone to drop the diaphragm muscle alone without taking a breath. Cannot be done! Yes, you can lower the diaphragm by taking a breath but cannot control the diaphragm itself.

I challenge you to talk with anyone currently doing research in respiration or physiology instead of clinging blindly to Arnold Jacobs' now-outdated and disproven views out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to your teacher.

Jacobs' views may have reflected the best available research 20-30+ years ago, but time and medical science don't stand still for anyone, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if Jacobs were alive today and pursuing the research he was doing in his heyday, he would be following the CURRENT literature and talking with the people conducting the primary research TODAY, and his teaching would reflect that, instead of stubbornly clinging to his past conclusions which were based on now-supplanted research.

pgym wrote:

bububassboner wrote:Why?
The diaphragm is only used on the inhale. I don't see how making it stronger will help your tuba playing. Now if you think that you have to push with your diaphragm while playing I would suggest researching how the diaphragm actually works. You might learn a thing or two.

Researching how the diaphragm actually works isn't a bad idea and could be a real eye-opener for those who have never dipped into the literature themselves but are simply repeating what they've been taught by their teachers.

There's a LOT of seriously outdated, if not flat out wrong, beliefs about the function of the diaphragm floating around in music circles, including the beliefs that it's only used to inhale and that it's strictly an involuntary muscle.

The current consensus in the fields of physiological and respiratory research (see the articles linked here) is that:

a) The diaphragm is used in both inspiration and expiration. Conscious, forced exhalations, such as when speaking, coughing, sighing, or spitting, are examples of the latter; and

b) The diaphragm can be controlled BOTH voluntarily AND involuntarily. Autonomic contraction and elastic rebound of the diaphragm ("breathing reflex") is the primary example of involuntary control (retching, hiccoughing, and burping are other examples). Holding your breath (consciously resisting the contraction/rebound) is an example of voluntary control; other examples of voluntary control of the diaphragm include intentionally increasing or decreasing the rate at which you breath (number of breaths per minute), consciously regulating the speed of inhalation and exhalation (e.g. "slow air to play low, fast air to play high"), and consciously controlling the depth of inspiration/expiration (e.g., sniff breathing vs. a full breath). (Granted, the diaphragm does not work in isolation from the abdominals, intercostals, and accessory muscles to respiration; and, granted, you have considerably more control over the abdominals and intercostals than the diaphragm; but neither changes the fact that the diaphragm works in both inspiration and expiration, and can be controlled voluntarily.)

So it's at least possible that strengthening the diaphragm could result in better regulation/control of one's air flow, which would be beneficial to one's playing. I would presume, though, that it would be more beneficial to strengthen all the musculature of respiration rather than just the diaphragm.

Okay. I like reading and learning so I took the time to read every piece that you had linked. Now my question is did you? Cause what I read did not work with what you are saying. All of the "voluntary" talk was not about how the diaphragm is a voluntary muscle, but how they used
"Cervical magnetic stimulation was used to stimulate the phrenic nerves (motor nerve for the diaphragm). Magnetic stimulation is an ideal technique for use in studies involving human subjects as it provides a nonvolitional measure of contractility (of the diaphragm) which is easily applied, well tolerated, and TwPdi is highly reproducible"
I added those little tid bits but most of these articles either were talking about how some disease affects the diaphragm or were not even readable as they required a membership to read. I'm impressed that you have memberships to so many online medical journals, but they all seem to contradict you. For example, you use the holding your breath example for voluntary control yet the papers the you posted said,
"Breath-holding is a voluntary act, but normal subjects appear unable to breath-hold to unconsciousness. A powerful involuntary mechanism normally overrides voluntary breath-holding and causes the breath that defines the breakpoint." This seems to follow the thought that even though you can choose to breath (voluntary) the involuntary system is still the main system at work. This is why people drown. When they are under water the diaphragm will involuntarily contract, causing a drop in pressure in the lungs which sucks in water.

I couldn't find a single thing in any of those articles to support the diaphragm being used for forced exhalation, or for the list that you wrote to include spitting. As has already been stated, muscles only work one way. The diaphragm engaging for the inhale and exhale just is impossible.

For the OP, don't get too caught up in all of this. There are players who do all of the Jacobs stuff that sound amazing, but there are also people who do the opposite and sound great too. Do what you have to do to sound amazing. Give everything a try, if it sounds bad then try something else.

[quoteI challenge you to talk with anyone currently doing research in respiration or physiology instead of clinging blindly to Arnold Jacobs' now-outdated and disproven views out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to your teacher.

Jacobs' views may have reflected the best available research 20-30+ years ago, but time and medical science don't stand still for anyone, and you can bet your bottom dollar that if Jacobs were alive today and pursuing the research he was doing in his heyday, he would be following the CURRENT literature and talking with the people conducting the primary research TODAY, and his teaching would reflect that, instead of stubbornly clinging to his past conclusions which were based on now-supplanted research.][/quote]

Wow!
We are talking about basic physiology, something that has not changed like high technology. The bible of physiology is still Gray's Anatomy first came out in 1858 and last reprinted in 2008.

I don't know what Jacobs knew, but a little Googling will show that the diaphragm is normally controlled involuntarily, when we don't think about breathing. However, it is quite possible to voluntarily override the involuntary impulses and consciously control breathing. Yes, the involuntary muscle impulses will take over again if we are drowning or suffocating, but we all know that from what happens if we get out of breath when playing.

As has already been stated, rather than strengthening the diaphragm, the OP might want to concentrate on a fuller expansion of the intercostals along with the diaphragm and the ability to control exhalation.

brianf wrote:Wow!
We are talking about basic physiology, something that has not changed like high technology. The bible of physiology is still Gray's Anatomy first came out in 1858 and last reprinted in 2008.

Then perhaps you should take the time to refresh your memory of what it says, and, more importantly, what it doesn't say about the diaphragm.

bububassboner wrote: Okay. I like reading and learning so I took the time to read every piece that you had linked. Now my question is did you? Cause what I read did not work with what you are saying.

Then I wonder whether you're misinterpreting what you've read. Case in point:

For example, you use the holding your breath example for voluntary control yet the papers the you posted said,
"Breath-holding is a voluntary act, but normal subjects appear unable to breath-hold to unconsciousness. A powerful involuntary mechanism normally overrides voluntary breath-holding and causes the breath that defines the breakpoint." This seems to follow the thought that even though you can choose to breath (voluntary) the involuntary system is still the main system at work. This is why people drown. When they are under water the diaphragm will involuntarily contract, causing a drop in pressure in the lungs which sucks in water.

You seem to assume that it's a case of either-or, i.e., that because, in extremis, the involuntary mechanism overrides voluntary control, voluntary control of the diaphragm must not exist or must not be possible. If that were the case, however, what is the involuntary mechanism overriding, and why would it have to override whatever purportedly non-existent mechanism it's overriding?

In point of fact, it's a case of both-and, i.e., in ordinary circumstances one can consciously and voluntarily control the diaphragm ... up to a point, but in extremis the involuntary mechanism will kick in and override the voluntary mechanism.

I couldn't find a single thing in any of those articles to support the diaphragm being used for forced exhalation, or for the list that you wrote to include spitting.

The articles cited are peer-reviewed, advanced level research, and as such, do not include basic information that the authors (rightfully) assume would be known by their intended audience (of which we aren't).

As has already been stated, muscles only work one way. The diaphragm engaging for the inhale and exhale just is impossible.

Only if you artificially limit the definition of "engaging" to contraction: if the definition of "engaging" includes relaxation, which, in the context of the respiratory cycle[/i], it must, then the diaphragm does indeed engage for both inspiration and expiration.

For the OP, don't get too caught up in all of this. There are players who do all of the Jacobs stuff that sound amazing, but there are also people who do the opposite and sound great too. Do what you have to do to sound amazing. Give everything a try, if it sounds bad then try something else.

D'accord.

GhostlyBoy08 wrote:I know this may sound stupid but can anyone give me some tips.

Yes. Once a day, punch yourself in the gut as hard as you can. Eventually, this experience will become so painful that you will do anything possible - including practice - to keep yourself too busy to get around to your daily punch.

no, you cannot strengthen your diaphragm, but you can do things to help it work efficiently, the most important of which is to keep your weight under control as you get older. A big belly splints the diaphragm and stops it moving down and therefore reduces the volume of the thoracic cavity.
I think we sometimes ignore the fact that playing the tuba is a considerable physical activity, we don't prepare as we would for a race, or a gym session or a football game, and don't pay as much attention to our general physical condition as we should.
Breathing exercises are great, and we should use them as part of our practice and rehearsal routine, but they affect abs, chest and shoulder muscles, not the diaphragm.