Article-"Here's Why You Seldom See Women Leading a Symphony"

[Heavy_Metal]

from Mother Jones- this features Baltimore's own Maestra, Marin Alsop:

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/0 ... lsop-proms" target="_blank

Let the discussion begin.

[pgym]

Hmm ...

In 2009 and 2012, as you may notice, nearly half of the conducting doctorates went to women.

Really? Looks to me like women earned 28-29 of the roughly 90 or so doctorates awarded in 2009, and about 29 of the 90-some awarded in 2012. Been a few decades since I took a math class, but last time I checked 29/90 was roughly a third, not "nearly a half."

Must be that damn "new math" they're pushing on kids in school these days.

[ppalan]

Hmm ...

In 2009 and 2012, as you may notice, nearly half of the conducting doctorates went to women.

Really? Looks to me like women earned 28-29 of the roughly 90 or so doctorates awarded in 2009, and about 29 of the 90-some awarded in 2012. Been a few decades since I took a math class, but last time I checked 29/90 was roughly a third, not "nearly a half."

Must be that damn "new math" they're pushing on kids in school these days.

Uh...not to put to fine a point on it but...it looks to me as if there were c. 60 awarded to men and c. 29 to women. That does seem to to be

nearly half

[Lew]

The way it is worded they appear to be saying that half of the degrees went to women. A more accurate way to word that would be that half as many degrees went to women as went to men, which is the same as saying about a third of the degrees went to women.

Either way, I'm sure that there are many reasons why conducting is still male dominated, not the least of which is inertia related to tradition. I would hope that women would be evaluated for such positions based on their abilities/qualifications, not based on any other factor. It would be interesting to see some statistics relative to how many applicants were women vs. men for these positions. No matter what, saying that having a woman conductor would be too distracting demonstrates ignorance.

[NCSUSousa]

This article reflects some of the discussion that's happening among lawyers about their gender equality ratios. (My wife is a lawyer - she's particularly interested in this topic)

There are 2 general points that journalists of all types seem to miss when they start talking about gender equality:
1 - It takes MANY YEARS for the graduates of the past five years to reach leadership positions within large, reputable organizations. You can't compare graduation rates from 2008 to anything except their ability to get hired at the lowest levels. It's completely ridiculous to make the comparison that this writer is making.
2 - The trend still exists for women (in all professions) to leave the work world to be stay-at-home moms. The trend is not nearly as strong as it used to be. What this means for this discussion: Many employment fields have had 55/45 graduation rates (female/male) for years, but the employment picture is still male dominated across all age ranges in the upper levels of those fields where longevity equates to better pay. It takes time for the ratio numbers to change because fields that require a high level of training, education or experience also have low turnover rate. As women have reduced their turnover rate, the ratio has balanced, but it's not there yet.

Summed up quite simply: There may in-fact be a glass ceiling for women in some organizations, but looking at graduates from 2008-2010 (the years our economy stalled) is NOT the way to determine if there's a glass ceiling keeping women out of positions traditionally held by 50-70yr old men.

Oh, yeah, and it helps if you know how to do math before you go to putting charts in your article and making statements that don't match those charts. Yet another thing that journalists ignore on their path to/through college.

[pgym]

Hmm ...

In 2009 and 2012, as you may notice, nearly half of the conducting doctorates went to women.

Really? Looks to me like women earned 28-29 of the roughly 90 or so doctorates awarded in 2009, and about 29 of the 90-some awarded in 2012. Been a few decades since I took a math class, but last time I checked 29/90 was roughly a third, not "nearly a half."

Must be that damn "new math" they're pushing on kids in school these days.

Uh...not to put to fine a point on it but...it looks to me as if there were c. 60 awarded to men and c. 29 to women. That does seem to to be

nearly half

Let's go ahead an put a fine point on it, if c. 60 degrees awarded to men plus c. 29 to women, c. how many total degrees were awarded, and what percentage of the total is 29? (Here's a hint: it's significantly less than "nearly half.")

The way it is worded they appear to be saying that half of the degrees went to women. A more accurate way to word that would be that half as many degrees went to women as went to men, which is the same as saying about a third of the degrees went to women.

EXACTLY.

[pgym]

Oh, yeah, and it helps if you know how to do math before you go to putting charts in your article and making statements that don't match those charts. Yet another thing that journalists ignore on their path to/through college.

Some music majors, too, apparently.

[ralphbsz]

What fraction of the conductors that stand in front of a serious (professional or high-grade amateur) symphony orchestra have a doctoral degree?

That's actually a serious question. I know lots of people with doctoral degrees. I know lots of people who make their living from making and teaching music. Quite a few of those professional musicians have bachelors or masters degrees in music (performance or education). Yet, I don't think I've ever met a person with a doctoral degree in music, except those that are teaching music at a university.

If my hunch is right, and a doctoral degree in music does not lead to actually "leading a symphony", rather the contrary outside of university campuses, then the whole discussion about gender equality in degrees is irrelevant to the question at hand.

[pgym]

What fraction of the conductors that stand in front of a serious (professional or high-grade amateur) symphony orchestra have a doctoral degree?

Earned or honorary? I would wager that most of the "big name" conductors have one or more honorary doctorates. But honorary degrees are meant to recognize achievement, not a form of certification.

[Heavy_Metal]

I believe the government should supervise every profession - down to the last restaurant server job at the Denny's in Jasper, Alabama - and make certain that every profession is precisely proportionally represented by the sexes and the races, including the "transgender" sex and the "unknown origin" race.

Jasper has a Denny's?

[Heavy_Metal]

Naah, they already have one in Jasper, IN.... too much confusion if they build one in another Jasper.....

[MartyNeilan]

I think we need more men singing the lead soprano parts in operas.