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Joe:

You bring up a lot of good points about the instrument's repair history of which I had not thought.

On the other hand, from my years of dealing in professional model French horns, I am also very skeptical when a very old instrument is in "superb, original condition". That typically indicates a horn that was so out of tune with itself that no one wanted to play it. This was typical of old Kruspes and Schmidts. Some were wonderful. Those are the ones that have patches in the bells from years of right hand contact while playing and some metal thinning due to hand acid over the years. Those were the examples of the old horns that were well built and played well. The others, no one touched.

I am not so inluenced by the physical appearance of the instrument as I am by what comes out of the bell.

Choosing a tuba is somewhat like choosing a marriage partner. Good looks are important to get my attention but in the 'long haul', performance is what counts!

I agree somewhat with Joe when he mentions "a horn that was lacquered and is now raw brass can gloss over original problems".

However.... I have yet to take ANY horn apart to find perfectly trimmed connections and solder joints throughout. I have no qualms whatsoever about stripping lacquer off a horn, taking it totally apart, and putting it back together the way it should have left the factory in the first place. I am talking about EVERY tuba.... not just the low-end student crap-O-matic stuff that was made in the 60's here in the US but also the high-end European stuff.

Pretty is nice but my old bare brass Marzans will play circles around most expensive bright and shiny horns.

Are we talking about what we think looks nice (which tubas are pretty?) or what finish/age we think looks better?

First and foremost, I make sure the tuba is a good player. After that, I'm okay with it being a little ugly, but only to a point. There are some tubas that are too ugly, even if they do play well. After all, I DO have to be seen in public with it, and I can only handle so many "hey, what's that?" questions.

In terms of attractiveness, the finish of the tuba is highly unimportant to me, but I think this is very different from "physical condition." I don't mind of there are a few signs of repair (stuff happens), but I don't want big dents, loose valves, or anything else that is poorly done or looks unreliable or homemade.

And for the record, I definitely think that some tubas are prettier than others. To my eye, the Miraphone 188 is a very attractive tuba, as are Alexanders and most piston 6/4 tubas. Those old Besson bell-front tubas are on the other end of the spectrum for me, along with the Conn 52J series (I think the valve section sticks WAY too far out the front of it, I don't like the way it looks).

Playing in a community band context, my primary criterion for instruments is that they have good intonation first, as many times the section does not have many players, and the intonation of the ensemble may or may not be consistent. If a note is stuffy, the next guy's tuba probably won't be on that particular note, and that will take care of it. Since I don't play with strings or (at present) professional ensembles, the appearance of the tuba is of no consequence.

When I was buying my new tuba I did not care about the finish and as there was only a lacquer tuba available I did not have a choice. As I already owned a silver plated tuba I was happy enough to buy the lacquer tuba.
After two years and having experienced the usual wear on the contact points and brown water spots on the bell from storing it on its bell with a grime catcher leaking water onto the bell
If i were to have the opportunity to buy again I think I would choose silver plate and put up with cleaning it.

I have bought several distressed instruments from ebay because i wanted to try a key or a different style of layout. (Front action rotary )
Because I am happy with my sousaphone and two of my upright Eb tubas my future purchases will be mainly influenced by price and then condition.

Finish aside, I frequently see comments to the effect of "the visible dents don't affect the sound at all". How much denting is required to actually affect the sound? I see some pretty dramatic lower bow dents and would find it hard to believe that a tubular instrument that is transformed into a "D-shaped" construct would have the same acoustic properties. Same question for the smaller tubes near the valves... when is a dent significant?

Thanks!

TubaTinker wrote:Pretty is nice but my old bare brass Marzans will play circles around most expensive bright and shiny horns.

I have a bare brass Marzan that passed through your hands, and I have to agree that the sound coming from it is nothing short of amazing. Lacquer be damned!

TubaTinker wrote:Choosing a tuba is somewhat like choosing a marriage partner.

Should I be looking for a bare finish in a marriage partner, also?

How the horn plays is all that matters to me. Honestly, unless the horn is obviously damaged (broken pieces, loose wires, smashed bell) I'll do nothing but continue to use it. Mind you, I'm speaking strictly of cosmetic damage. I am definitely OCD about my horns working perfectly. Every valve has to move smoothly, slides as well, no blockages or dents in bad places, nor anything that makes using the horn more difficult. Past that, finish and other cosmetics are only window dressing. In my business, customers do not hear you with their eyes. And I play for a living, I don't sell horns for a living. Considering a horn's resale possibilities just doesn't enter my mind when purchasing a horn. I only buy a horn because I need it and intend to use it.

Interesting... lots of people prefer to have a horn that plays great but don't necessarily care how that horn looks.
I personally love great-playing instruments but also think a sparkly, dent-free appearance ads a certain kind of pride that might make its way into how I approach it. I would very much like to see my 188 in silver some day.

How about the pros out there who are on stage and in the public eye? Does it matter if your horn plays like a weapon of God but looks, um, well-loved?

It's sound, response,intonation and valve condition in that order. With the first two there is not a whole lot you can cheaply/easily do to make huge improvements to, the third can be dealt with alternate fingerings, slide manipulation and lipping - but the easier it is to deal with intonation the more interested I am. The fourth is a deal breaker unless the horn can be bought so cheap as to make this a worthwhile expense. While I buy with the idea I will own for some time - I always like to be able to extract a good part of my capital out of it if I should sell down the road. A complete valve job is an expensive item. Repairs on a horn that are done well don't bother me. Dents and so forth can be repaired fairly reasonably. Finish is not crucial and while I like a nice looking horn appearance is in the eye of the beholder. I love the look of my 45 year old 185 missing most of it's lacquer and who wouldn't be willing to show up anywhere with that beautiful non-shiny old/updated BBb Holton 345 that Tony Kniffen is selling on the For Sale page?

Trevor Bjorklund wrote:Interesting... lots of people prefer to have a horn that plays great but don't necessarily care how that horn looks.
I personally love great-playing instruments but also think a sparkly, dent-free appearance ads a certain kind of pride that might make its way into how I approach it. I would very much like to see my 188 in silver some day.

How about the pros out there who are on stage and in the public eye? Does it matter if your horn plays like a weapon of God but looks, um, well-loved?

I'm not going to lie, I want to see a new silver 188 as well. So... when are you placing your order...?

The most important thing to me is how fancy, expensive, and bad-*** my horn appears to other tuba players. Sure, other tubists make a beautiful sound, are in tune, play musically, da da da. But can they walk into a tuba convention with the best, most expensive gig-bag ever and pull out the shiniest, largest, most modernized and customized rare instrument?

I'd rather get the eyes of envy than the ears of musical contentment any day of the week.

Who cares what it sounds like. To quote the great orchestral tubist, 'lil Wayne...

Bling bling
Everytime I come around yo city
Bling bling
Thumb ring worth about fifty
Bling bling
Everytime I buy a new horn
Bling bling
Gold plate on YamaYork yo
Bling bling

saktoons wrote:Should I be looking for a bare finish in a marriage partner, also?

As often as possible.

bort wrote:Those old Besson bell-front tubas are on the other end of the spectrum for me

+1

What were they thinking by making the bell so low on the horn???
How in the hell are you supposed to see the conductor???
Or your music for that matter???

KiltieTuba wrote:What about silver on gold - like the 50th Anniversary Conn Sousaphone?

Many of us agree that silver & gold don't go well together on the same horn, but I've got to admit that
the 50th Anniversary Conn Sousaphone is a beautiful work of art, it's just amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vULSZ-ouBOc" target="_blank" target="_blank

Most of my tubas are pretty ugly.

The gold/silver thing is interesting and it looks tacky to me. Wonder why the brass/nickel silver combination found on so many Euro horns looks nice, shiny or in patina?

Other visual-only factors: I love the looks of clock springs and S linkages even though they can be a PITA to keep quiet.