BAT Prospect

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:20 am

I went to a friend's dad's house last weekend to watch the Superbowl. In the home's front entryway was a huge old tuba sitting in the corner with some faux flowers shoved in the bell. This thing was huge, bell appeared to be 20 inches plus, upright, four top action valves. The horn was brass but the laquer was all but history. I tried to read the engraving, but could only make out what appeared to be "London & Henly" 1901? It was hard to see. I really didnâ€™t want to goo goo over their "planter" as a guest in their home, so I didnâ€™t attempt to measure bore size and dimensions. Anyway, does anyone have any information on "London & Henley" horns or something similar? I am not an expert, but the horn appeared to be a BBb judging from the wrap. The finish was all but gone, but there wasnâ€™t a dent that I could see on the horn, no patches, no holes. If something could be worked out, is this something worth restoring, or worth trying to purchase and turn a profit. The horn was similar in layout to the new King 2341, but with upright valves, and was much bigger in the bottom bow and upper branches.

Any help is appreciated.

Sam

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:09 am

Do you think it could have been "Lyon & Healy"? They were a Chicago music store that imported a lot of horns around the turn of the century and put their own name on them. I don't know if they resold any American horns or not.
_____________________________
Joe Baker, who recently sold a Lyon & Healy (french) horn for $25 just to get it out from underfoot.

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:19 am

Very well could have been. Were Lyon and Healy large BBb tubas as poor as their french horns?

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:22 am

I searched for Lyon & Healy and came across a website called CoolTubas.com. On that site there is a picture of the same horn I found being used as a flower pot. The site claims the horn was made by Holton. Are these horns worth saving?

http://dalehale.com/cooltubas/lyonHeBU.htm

Joe Baker · Post by **Joe Baker** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:41 am

OOH, THAT Lyon & Healy!! BUY THAT TUBA!!

Here's an article about Dale Hale's instruments:
http://dalehale.com/Bio&Pics/Article3.htm

_______________________________________
Joe Baker, who shudders to think of that horn holding phony flowers.

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:25 pm

I am going to give him a call tonight to see what it would take to get it. I think the horn has potential. The problems may be just cosmetic and it may just need some proper valve and slide jobs. There was no dirt in it, they just used it to hold some fake flowers from what I could tell. They had a few other old instruments as decoration, but the tuba cought my eye.

Thanks for the information...

Tabor · Post by **Tabor** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:46 pm

...OR, you could just see how/if it plays right now. Who knows?

that tuba looks cool.

-Tabor

Dale Hale · Post by **Dale Hale** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:07 pm

Sam,
I'm the COOLTUBA.COM guy! As you can see (from the site) I love those horns! PLEASE!!!!!! Don't be too quick to have major work done on it (if you get it). Some of the fun is having a 100 year old horn that hasn't be chopped, hacked, and butcher to death! Don't be in a hurry to have it ripped apart to add front valves and turned into something it isn't or another key!
Talk to me first...if you get it or don't get it! You'll kick yourself the rest of your life if you don't try and get it!
Dale Hale
HTTP://COOLTUBAS.COM & HTTP://CARTOONSFORKIDS.COM

chhite · Post by **chhite** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:18 pm

Mike Lynch has the mother of all Lyon and Healy tubas. His was a Dillon special that is now a CC and many have commented on its breadth of sound and the efficiency by which that huge sound is produced. Dave Zerkel used it to play the first movement of the Gregson when he did a workshop at Eastman in '03. I remember it as one of the few horns called a 6/4 that puts out 6/4 or greater worth of sound without feeling like I've lifted weights with my lungs.

Liberty Mo · Post by **Liberty Mo** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:02 pm

I saw a big fat tuba that was slowly being tortured to death as a flower pot, and thought it might be worth resurrecting. I never said anything about making it front action????? I really never said anything about satin finishes or heated valve buttons or fire breathing spit valves??? I just wondered if it could still play and if it is worth the time and effort.

Thanks for the words Dale, great site. IF its for sale, IF I can convince the wife to let me have it, and IF I can unload the horn I have now, and IF its still salvageable, only then would I hope it is as special as some of the horns on your site!

MikeMason · Post by **MikeMason** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:30 pm

go to Dale's above linked site and check out what Mr. Karella is doing with his left hand. so much for the "i can't reach my valve slides" argument...

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 3:48 pm

Liberty Mo wrote:I saw a big fat tuba that was slowly being tortured to death as a flower pot, and thought it might be worth resurrecting. I never said anything about making it front action????? I really never said anything about satin finishes or heated valve buttons or fire breathing spit valves??? I just wondered if it could still play and if it is worth the time and effort.

Thanks for the words Dale, great site. IF its for sale, IF I can convince the wife to let me have it, and IF I can unload the horn I have now, and IF its still salvageable, only then would I hope it is as special as some of the horns on your site!

You didn't say to convert it, but someone else did. I agree, there is absolutely no reason to try to convert it to front action. Let us know if you end up picking it up, and if not if he is willing to sell it. There are probably more than a few willing potential buyers for it.

Adam C. · Post by **Adam C.** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 4:24 pm

Aren't there enough 6/4 frankentubas to go around without another historical instrument being destroyed?

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:13 pm

harold wrote:There are certainly no statistics to support this, but I bet that 90% of tubists prefer front action to top action.

As much as I hate to do this, there is a stat supporting it. viewtopic.php?t=1697

While I personally would never mutilate a historical instrument by chopping it, some people prefer to modify it into a specific type of horn and that is their choice for their property.

Good luck

Sousie

By the way, I don't prefer either front or top action, I prefer the best sound and if it has a good top action sound, keep it that way.

Captain Sousie · Post by **Captain Sousie** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 1:27 am

Here's an altered version of my previous post that more aptly fits the situation then

While I personally would never mutilate a historical instrument by radically altering it, some people prefer to modify it into a specific type of horn and that is their choice for their property.

Sousie

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:41 am

harold wrote:
Converting a horn does not necessarily make it any less original. What happens if I add a L & H front action four valve block of the same vintage? Is the horn then any less original?
Are you absolutely certain that the valve block in this horn now is original?

Look at Mike Ferries' 6/4 Martin - it started as a 6/4 three valve top action horn and now is a four valve front action horn. If that is a frankentuba, we should all have them.

As a historian I would like to point out a few things...

There is a huge difference between "original" and "period correct." Original means that it is not a derivitive or imitation of the initial (in this case) instrument. In other words, it is unaltered from that way that it way originally produced. Period correct, on the other hand, would be a better way to describe what you'd end up with if you converted the said tuba to a front action tuba (regardless of key) using only parts from that time period and refrained from modernizing the instrument with such things as large finger buttons and adjustable receivers. The 6/4 Martin that Oberloh did up for Mike Ferris is actually a cross between a period correct horn and a custom. It is period correct in the sense that the valve section used was from a Martin 4 valve sousaphone of the same era, but custom in the sense that the mouthpipe and some of the branches and slide tubes were made from scratch. I suppose it is the tuba that Martin could have built.

A "true" frankentuba would be something more like this:

This photo is from Rick Denney's site. It shows his York Master (right) along side a Buescher/Nirschl/Dillon CC that Rick Denney describes as "made from a Beuscher bell, a Nirschl bottom bow, and either a Nirschl or Meinl-Weston valve body." I'd call this a frankentuba because it includes parts from various sources and time periods fused together. By the way...valve section looks VMI/Meinl Weston to me.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:46 am

harold wrote:
Please forgive my ignorance, but why make it a front action?
In my estimation, most players want a front action horn.

So? I think you are being too aggressive here. The Lyon and Healy instrument in question is a wonderful instrument with the top action valves that came on it, if they are in good condition. The historical value of this instrument, as one of the mothers of the BAT, is also worth preserving considering that it will play just fine with those top-action valves.

There's no need to think about "investments". Just buy, repair, and play the thing as it is. It will be worth more than what it cost you (as long as the fellow who thinks it's a flower pot doesn't read Tubenet), repairs included.

Your statement that 99% of players prefer front action would be seen with some dismay in Great Britain, where the percentage is in the 90's for those who play top-action instruments. If they don't work, then why do I have so many recordings of British orchestras in my collection?

It will probably need a valve job and it will probably require the slides to be unstuck. All worth what it costs. If it's already largely free of dents, you won't even have to unsolder the thing to overhaul it. I doubt the repairs would cost over a thousand dollars to bring it to first-class playing condition (making it look good is another matter, and one that I wouldn't worry with--it will still look cool to tuba players and it will sound cool to everyone else).

I bought a Conn 20J a few years ago, and talked about turning it around to front action. Someone said, why? I couldn't think of an answer. Play it as it is. If you want a front-action tuba, sell this one and buy another one that already has the pistons you want.

If the instrument was real trash, such as the valve body smashed beyond repair such that it would have to be replaced anyway, then that's another matter. It doesn't sound like the case here.

Of course, the guy who buys it can do what he wants with it (I agree with Bloke here), but I think he just wants to bring a tuba back into use that ought to be back in use. There's no need to give the impression that the instrument isn't worth much unless it has front-action valves.

Rick "thinking this is a bit of BAT history worth preserving and enjoying as it is" Denney

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:51 pm

HeliconMan wrote:I really don't see why a valve job cannot be performed "successfully" without pulling the valve block. ....... This seems logical, or is there something I'm missing here?

The valves can be lapped into the casings on a front-action horn without removing the valve block. It's virtually impossible to lap the pistons in on a top-loader without removing the valve block. Some of the old Yorks were not obstructed but generally you just can't get to 'em.