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I have a possible conn 2j eb tuba ( top valve circca 1926. Currently it has a leadpipe that takes a small shank mp. What are the pro/con of having the leadpipe modified to take a large standard mp?

I cannot think of any reason to NOT change the receiver.

What bloke said.

New-style, bigger MPs often lead to some very funky intonation on these horns, as well.
The MPs were smaller for a reason...

(If one intended to use this as a main axe, the I'd go with 'Tinker, but if one intended to use this as a main axe, I'd get a bigger horn or have a MP made, anyway)

I've wrestled with this question over the past year since I acquired the 1924 Eb Buescher referred to in my sig. Once it became obvious that it wasn't pitched to A=440 and I cut it down (actually a three-stage process over a number of months) and added a third valve kicker, it ultimately came to play quite well in tune. The F and E-natural at the bottom of the staff are now handled easily with the help of the kicker, and otherwise (and somewhat oddly) the A natural at the top of the staff tends to be quite sharp when played with 2, but with 2+3 and the kicker all the way in it is right on (it CAN be lipped down with the 2 fingering, but on a regular basis that's pretty fatiguing).

A constant question for me was what mouthpiece to use -- both in order to get a good tuba tone quality and to get good intonation (since that seems readily affected by mouthpiece in this case). I came VERY close about a month ago to replacing the receiver in order to have a wider range of selections. But with additional experimentation I finally decided not to. The last experiment involved sanding/filing down the shank of a Kelly 25. It worked okay in terms of intonation and tone quality, but still not as good as the Wick 5. At that point I decided that -- for this horn -- I probably wasn't going to find anything better than the Wick 5, that I really did like the Wick 5 overall, and that changing out the receiver wouldn't gain me anything except more time spent trying a bunch of mouthpieces I'd likely reject. Better actually to play the horn -- which I'm now doing in Tuba Christmas events .

I don't think there's any harm in changing the receiver, but before you do, you might try a few mouthpieces just to see if you find a good one for the horn as-is. Try the Wick 5 and maybe the Wick 4. Also try a couple of the largest Wick bass trombone mouthpieces. The 2AL worked, but not well. I've not tried the 1AL or 0AL or 00AL. Might be worth a try. The Schilke 60 works, but not nearly as well as the Wick 5, and it results in a trombone-like sound especially in the lower register.

Brass Bow,
As others have implied, the instrument in question is not a modern instrument, and because of the march towards larger and larger equipment over the past 125 years or so, a modern mouthpiece and large receiver would cause you more problems than they would solve.

The mouthpieces of that time for Eb tuba were generally much smaller than we use today, with a shank close to that of a modern bass trombone. A proper Eb tuba mouthpiece for an instrument of that time would have a relatively shallow bowl. A mouthpiece with a deep cup or funnel will wreck the intonation both high and low, and harm the overall response, too. If you cannot find an antique mouthpiece in good condition to use, I would suggest that you try a bass trombone mouthpiece with a relatively large rim opening and shallow bowl, and see how that works for you.

Also, if you experience intonation and response difficulties, have the instrument checked for leaks. They are pretty common on instruments that old, and when repaired, the instrument just comes alive. I just finished restorative work on an 1860 John Stratton, New York Eb bass which had leaks throughout. I was astounded by how nice the instrument sounded when all the leaks were gone. And, even with a small, antique mouthpiece, it had a good low register.

I like using contrabass trombone mouthpieces in these things. Check out the Josef Klier line-

http://josefklier.de/mouthpieces/trombone/?lang=en

I have a 2A and 2C (works awesome in my bass trombone!); the depths aren't that different. I'd get an A cup in whichever rim size you want. Fyi, my 2C was fifty bucks from Dillon's a few years ago.

Lee Stofer wrote: The mouthpieces of that time for Eb tuba were generally much smaller than we use today, with a shank close to that of a modern bass trombone. A proper Eb tuba mouthpiece for an instrument of that time would have a relatively shallow bowl. A mouthpiece with a deep cup or funnel will wreck the intonation both high and low, and harm the overall response, too.

I've become very curious about this. About every comment I've seen over the past few years (and this includes those from the most reputable sources) says that these mouthpieces were "smaller" than the ones we use today, and most say that they had relatively shallow bowls. But I haven't seen anyone refer to a specific example of this: a particular brand and model of mouthpiece, or a particular set of dimensions.

Hanging on my wall is a photo of the Reliance Brass Band that is apparently from 1906. It's the same pic as the first one on this page: http://www.hurricanebrassband.nl/Brassb ... 20band.htm. Unfortunately the picture on that web page cannot be magnified, but in looking at my wall copy of it, it looks as though none of the mouthpieces are especially small -- particularly the one on what appears to be a baritone/euphonium in the front row (unless that's a really small tuba), and the obvious tuba in the front row. I can't tell if that tuba is an Eb or a BBb. If I had to guess, I'd probably bet on BBb.

In my own experimentation with mouthpieces on my Buescher Eb, by far the best mouthpiece in terms of both sound quality, intonation, and response has been the Wick 5 -- which is quite narrow, but not shallow. In fact, Wick's description of it is "Deep cup and matching backbore." In terms of diameter, it's only about 1mm wider than a Schilke 60 bass trombone mouthpiece, but is significantly deeper. So definitely not relatively shallow, unless "relative" means in comparison to a Conn Helleberg. My shank-modified Kelly 25 also produces good intonation and good sound, but the response with it really sucks.

So my question here is this: Do we know of any specific examples of mouthpieces (brand, model, dimensions) that were actually used with these tubas during the time when they were being made? Does anyone have one of these in a collection somewhere? What exactly are the dimensions? I mean, do we have examples that we KNOW were used with the horns? An example that just "came with my horn when I got it and looks really old" doesn't count". I've got one of those . But I don't remotely believe it was ever intended as a tuba mouthpiece, and it works terribly in the horn.

I'd be interested at some point in having -- or even just seeing or knowing the brand, model, or dimensions of -- what we know is a "period correct" mouthpiece. Anyone actually have one of these? Does the TE maybe have one? Maybe I should just drop by and see since it's only about 30 min away.

I have become very skeptical of claims of the sort "this mouthpiece was used on ...".

That Conn mouthpiece MAY indeed have been intended for (and used on) early 20th century Eb tubas. But it also MAY just be an old bass trombone or euphonium mouthpiece. Either one would be "smaller than a standard tuba mouthpiece" and "fit on an old Eb tuba".

What I'd like to see is some documentary evidence clearly linking a particular mouthpiece to Eb tubas in the late 1800s or early 1900s. I just haven't seen ANYTHING establishing such a link or describing dimensions of the mouthpieces used on these instruments. All I have is from a 1909 "Buescher True-Tone Quarterly" that offers their "standard tuba mouthpiece" #24 for Eb bass, #22 for Baritone, and #25 for BBb Bass. But nothing specific about each of those mouthpieces.

For the sake of some additional comparisons ... Here are five mouthpieces I've tried on my Buescher Eb horn.
From left to right these are:

The mouthpiece that came with the horn when I got it. This appears to be some kind of (unmarked) old bass trombone or euphonium mouthpiece. While it "fits" the tuba in the sense that it seats at about the depth you would expect, the taper is clearly not that of the receiver and it's a bit loose at the outer end. It also is wretched in terms of tone/intonation/you name it. It likewise doesn't fit my Mack Brass euph well.

Denis Wick 3AL. This fits the tuba quite well and makes for a "playable" mouthpiece, but the tone is not tuba-like. Intonation is okay.

Besson #13. This one is weird. I got it on Ebay (new old stock), hoping that it might be just the ticket. It fit well in the receiver shortly after I got the horn and sounded decent, but not too tuba-like and pretty "bright". However, once I CLEANED the instrument thoroughly about four times, all the built-up gunk of decades got cleared out of the leadpipe and now when you put it in it goes ALL the way in up to the bowl! It doesn't fit any instrument I have: Mack Brass euph, tuba, Amati euph, Martin baritone. It is clearly a tuba mouthpiece, but for what tuba, I know not. Probably some old Besson, I guess. My hunch is that it was intended for a smaller tuba than the one I have (mine is pretty "big" for a "small Eb" -- 17" bell and all that).

Denis Wick 5. This fits the receiver very well, but my feeling/hunch is that it's not quite a perfect fit in terms of taper. It is definitely the best overall for tone, intonation, and response. It might be just about perfect if it were a bit more shallow -- but not a lot more shallow.

TU-17. This can be inserted into the receiver -- but only about 1/2"-5/8" of it. It is the BEST in terms of tone quality and response. The intonation seems uniform, BUT of course it plays pretty flat. My sense is that this might be close to ideal if it had the right shank. I think now and then of turning it down since I don't use it for anything else now. But I hate the thought of butchering such a nice (and pricey!) mouthpiece -- and I'm not sure there's enough wall thickness to ensure it would be usable. I had hoped that the cheap Kelly 25 approach might yield similar results, but it did not.

I've come to think that there are really a couple of somewhat related questions here. One is "What were the original mouthpieces really like and how did they sound and respond in this type of horn?" That's mostly a historical question. But the second is "What would be the 'best' mouthpiece to use in the horn in order to achieve the best tuba sound, intonation, and response?" I'm really focused more on the second question since I am not inclined to believe that the "original equipment" is necessarily the best solution just because it was the original one.

I think the real answer to this second question would be found by having Doug Elliott send me a bunch of shanks, bowls, and rims, and trying them all. The solution has to be right there in what he can provide. But I don't want to throw that much money into a mouthpiece for this horn. It would cost me more than the horn did, and on its best day this was never a great tuba. So I'm going with "serviceable" and "adequate", and probably sticking with the Wick 5.

ghmerrill wrote:What I'd like to see is some documentary evidence clearly linking a particular mouthpiece to Eb tubas in the late 1800s or early 1900s.

from Conn Loyalist, http://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnMpcF ... tists.html" target="_blank"

Conn "Famous Artists" mouthpiece list: Bass

Std #, Bakelite #, Mouthpiece name
JI-200, JI-400, Standard Eb Bass
JI-201, JI-401, Giant Eb Bass
JI-202, JI-402, Helleberg Bass
JI-203, JI-403, C.G. Conn Ltd. Special
JI-204, JI-404, Chief J. Kuhn
JI-205, JI-405, Geib

This chart is made from original contemporary documentation that was summarized into one convenient chart.

The Standard and Giant Eb mouthpieces can both be found in the mouthpiece section of this 1913 Conn catalogue:
http://www.saxophone.org/museum/publications/id/131" target="_blank"

They are both listed specifically as being for Eb.

The Conn Standard ebay auction mentioned before was for one of these mouthpieces.
They both have the smaller-than-standard-BBb shank.

I have both a Standard and Giant Eb mouthpiece that I use with my Eb's, and I see them come up on ebay from time to time.

None of the mouthpieces mentioned (from what I can tell) are actually in the size range that I would offer as a solution for that type of tuba. You don't really know what its capabilities are when you're trying only inappropriate mouthpieces in it.

Anarchist