Martin Mammoth or Conn 20J?

[Hetzer21]

Interested in the opinions of folks who have played or heard both. Pros and cons of each as well as direct comparisons and estimated price range for the Martin horn.

Thanks!

[eupher61]

To me, no comparison. A Martin blows the Conn away by far, but that's my taste. The Martin is the sound I've craved for a long time. There are also not nearly as many of them around, much less available.

The 2xJ is not bad, don't get me wrong. A good one, especially a 4 valve front loaded, will do anything you want. I simply prefer the Martin sound.

Of course, depending on what your use/need is, and your taste, ymmv. Conns that are available are usually cheaper than Martins, but often are more damaged from school use.

[Hetzer21]

Thanks for the info and the quick reply Steve.

Is this a Martin Mammoth?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-Bb-Tuba- ... 3cda1048ee" target="_blank

[WilliamVance]

The Martins are better for me intonation wise and have a very warm, large sound with even response. I would recommend playing a conn and a martin if possible. I have owned both and ended up with all martins. No matter what, make sure they are in good shape including correct valve alignment. If this is off either model can play squirrelly with poor intonation. The seemingly biggest issue is the Martins have a special set of bits that are required to truly appreciate the quality of the tuba as it was originally intended. Overall, I vote Martin.

[Hetzer21]

Thanks for the feedback. Let me focus my query a bit more.

My current horn is a lovely old Pan American helicon, but as I play in a 20-piece "community street band" the sound is misdirected for outside performances. A friend let me borrow her 1953 Conn 20K and I loved the deep, organ-like sound of the instrument. Since my group has almost as much to do with theatre as sound, I don't want a sousaphone necessarily and have read lots of good things about the Conn 20J sound. And the 20K/J valves are short and sweet. I had been hunting contentedly for an 20J, and then the Martin Mammoth option entered the picture.

Requisites in a nutshell:
-big sound for outside venues
-vintage appearance
-as sturdy as possible
-being in tune is a plus

-Clark

[WilliamVance]

A well taken care of Martin will meet your criteria. They are very sturdy! I play mine in an outside setting in the summer and the presence is felt with a 70 piece band. As far as vintage looking, the design is more vintage than a 20J.

[Paul Scott]

The ebay tuba is a Martin Mammoth and appears to be a pre-WWII example, which is preferable. These top-action BBbs are remarkably consistent and also quite ergonomic, in my opinion. They tend to have one quirk: stock valve stems that are too short. Not a difficult fix for a qualified brass tech.

Those don't appear to be original "bits" and I've seen Bundy bits used as substitutions-not sure if that's been done here. The "Bundy fix" doesn't work too well but luckily, Martin Wilk can create reproduction bits that are better than the originals, IMO. Trouble is that the female receiver on the leadpipe may have to be changed out to accept the proper bits. Even with all that, there's a lot of horn there and (at the moment) at a good price.

[Uncle Markie]

The Martin is superior to the Conn.

The intonation and core of sound - and efficiency of the Martin is tough to beat.

Martin Wilk is the man - get the Martin bits from him; they're worth every dime and are a vast improvement over the Bundy bits (which are better than sticking Conn bits in there). The Martin was designed to be played two so the mouthpiece could be adjusted to a variety of players, string bass doublers playing tuba from a stand, etc. If you get a Martin - do not be talked into changing out the leadpipe - they got it right in the first place.

Lee Stofer's upright Martin bells are wonderful and his prices are very fair. Original upright bells for both the old Conns and certainly the Martins are rare as hen's teeth.

I agree about pre-WWII Martins - the horns with the more elaborate "sunburst" engraving seem to play better.

The Conn short action valve business kills projection IHMO. They're slightly heavier than the Martins, which BTW are not as large a bore as you might think.

Martins were more expensive than Conns too.

Johnny Evans (no relation to Merle) played a Martin with Ringling, Caesar LaMonica's Band and Guy Lombardo. Harvey Phillips owned one, Arnold Jacobs owned one, Bill Bell was a third owner in one (although he endorsed Kings), Country Joe Washburn made many recordings on his Martin with Ted Weems and Spike Jones (you can youtube these and hear how penetrating the Martin sound is). I played mine on numerous gigs - Ringling, dance bands, concert bands, and even the symphony jobs. The longer stroke of the Martin valves never hindered me from playing circus gallops at 220 beats per minute, either.

Conn 20Js seemed to found at every HS in northern New Jersey when I was kid. I never thought they put out the sound of a big horn, despite the weight of the instrument, large bore, etc. I discovered the Martin hearing Johnny Evans in the Ringling Circus Band - I was amazed by him of course, but I did fail to notice what he was doping that wonderful tuba playing on - a Martin Mammoth Handcraft recording bass.

Get the Martin.

Mark Heter

[fairweathertuba]

That certainly looks like it might be a good deal on the Martin on Ebay. OK, confession tme, I've never actually had the good fortune to play a Martin Mammoth but will definitely keep my eyes open for one after reading all the high praise for them here.

I'm am on my 2nd 20J however. The first one I used for dixieland almost exclusively and I did at times wish for more punch or drive out of it but I do have a recording with a 6 piece group where it does sound big and fat enough for what was going on. This was not the best example of the 20J by any means, it was a bit stuffy, high range wasn't easy intonation was wonky, it was serviced by a professional who claimed it was all aligned properly and was playing at it's most efficient.

Now several years later I have a different one that plays a lot more openly, the upper register is much easier and in general it seems to have a bit more punch to it. The intonation is not perfect but is workable and is certainly better than the previous one I owned. I like it for my purposes, dixieland and perhaps a community band later down the road.

I hope someone on the board here snaps up the ebay Martin so we can get an in depth review.

[royjohn]

Uncle Markie wrote:

The Conn short action valve business kills projection IHMO

and

Conn 20Js seemed to found at every HS in northern New Jersey when I was kid. I never thought they put out the sound of a big horn, despite the weight of the instrument, large bore, etc.

I have a 20J, but have never played a Martin. Based on what's been said here in various threads, the Martin IS a better horn than the 20J, albeit more expensive and scarcer. I can't, however, figure out how short action valves kill projection. The fat, boomy sound might, but I don't think the valves have anything to do with that. I also have never seen it said that the 20J didn't put out a big sound. Mine certainly sounds great at church, where the ceilings are 20 feet high and the building seats 400. It's pretty common for people to say that these horns (20J's) are built for putting a floor under a big band . . . which to me would imply a big sound of a sort.

[fairweathertuba]

One more thing about the 20j valves, they don't always work perfectly and it takes a bit of time to get used to them in order to get the most out of them. When they are working about as good as one could hope for, they still aren't going to be smooth as silk 100% of the time, at least on the 2 I've owned. Perhaps when the instruments are fairly new and haven't been abused by any school kids the valves are fine and smooth as as silk. 2

Besides having the short action eliptical shaped valve openings the instruments have a unique valve guide system that I believe probably allows for some rotational misalignment of the valves as well as the traditional vertical possible mis-alignment. There is no valve guide but the valve is held in rotational alignment by a set point sort of valve guide at the top of the valve casing, the valve casing therefore doesn't need a valve guide groove all the way down the casing, it's just set at the top and the valve is held in place with a rod attached the the set-point. I haven't really taken the time to look at it closely and the darn horn is stuffed away in the case and shoved into a corner right now and I don't have the will to drag it out so that I can do the analysis. Suffice it to say the 20j valves are a bit different in more than one way; which results in a mixed bag of blessings and problems at the same time.

IMO 20j's take some time to get used to, and even if everything is working about as optimal as possible, these things still might not be to a lot of peoples liking. It's easy to sound terribly sloppy, out of tune and gross on a 20j but I've also heard some really great stuff being played on them.

[royjohn]

My 20J is a 1934 school horn, which I just got a couple of months ago. I cleaned it a bit and oiled the valves and haven't had any trouble with them. The horn was worked on last month and it was cleaned and the valves aligned, as well as de-denting done to the leadpipe and some of the bell and outer bow. The valves worked fine before and after the repair.

In an old thread, one of our repair gurus said he's never seen a 20J that needed a valve replate and he credited the short throw valves on that. The only thing I can say about the valves is that they are a little heavy in action, and I suppose I could try lighter springs. It is certainly true that the ovoid valve ports need to be aligned carefully or the intonation or blow can be affected.

One of my Christmas gifts to me is a minicam to snake into the pipes of my horns. When I get it, the first thing I'll do is check the alignment on the 20J and particularly the horizontal alignment. All that said, I've never heard of routine problems with the 2xJ valves before.

[pwhitaker]

Another county heard from:

I've owned a 1931 Martin Mammoth top 3 valve, a 1953 Conn 20J top 3 valve and a 1941 Holton front short stroke 3 valve at the same time and used all 3 rather interchangeably for about 2 years in a variety of settings. After careful consideration and some input from the various groups I decided to keep the Holton and sold the other two. All 3 of these are 6/4 BB's with detachable recording bells. All 3 of them play very well with excellent intonation but the Holton produces the sound most closely to what I prefer. I even kept this horn and sold my older Rudy 5/4 BBb which, until I played the Holton, was my all time favorite horn.

This is the Holton: http://mainetoday.mycapture.com/mycaptu ... ryID=52602" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[Hetzer21]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. So, after nearly 80 years in Wisconsin, that horn will be coming to live with me in Central Texas. Expect a report in about a week or so!

[eupher61]

You got the Jim Laabs Martin? Great! That's a very good price, the condition is certainly "used" but it's not beat to hell like so many 2xJ seem to be.

Congrats! I hope you'll agree that the sound is the thing...it's an amazing instrument you're getting!

steve

[Hetzer21]

The horn arrived unscathed. Very well packed by the shipper in Steven's Point.

First impressions:
Its "voice" is more ringing and clarion-like than the room-shaking 20K.
There is some sort of oddity with the third valve, esp. when used in conjunction with the first valve. Sounds like there is a hole in the horn, even worse than the loss of sound you get when the water key is open. Any ideas?

[fairweathertuba]

The horn arrived unscathed. Very well packed by the shipper in Steven's Point.

First impressions:
Its "voice" is more ringing and clarion-like than the room-shaking 20K.
There is some sort of oddity with the third valve, esp. when used in conjunction with the first valve. Sounds like there is a hole in the horn, even worse than the loss of sound you get when the water key is open. Any ideas?

Could very well be that this horn needs to have the valves redone. Or possibly the felts and corks aren't lining the pistons up well with the ports. If you aren't satisfied I do hope you can get a refund.

[EdFirth]

These horns are incredibly allignment sensitive. The valve stems can also be a bit short(an easy fix) I've never played one that wasn't great.Ed

[Hetzer21]

Good news. The problem has mysteriously disappeared. As the horn was very well cared for, it most certainly was not any kind of blockage. I know it had a valve job 10 years ago, and yet it is quite possible that there was an alignment issue that has (for the time being) corrected itself. I admit that it might also have to do with the player. While the 20k was never a problem during my week on it, I am a 4/4 player. The room I was in also seemed to "swallow" the low C. I took it outside (lovely day in Texas) and got to experience what many of you have been describing: a fantastic horn. Very easy to play. The higher registers have a sweet, melodious quality--- could imagine the horn in a high end symphonic ensemble. The lower notes are round and powerful and very gratifying. It can chirp out staccato notes throughout its range and pianissimo notes come easily and true.
I thank all if you whose observations steered me to this horn. It is certainly a keeper. Even if the 3rd valve "problem" turns out to need a repairman's hand and is not my inexperience with this tuba, it would be we worth it!

[Hetzer21]

Took the horn to rehearsal today. The other two tubists maintain that it's a mechanical problem of some kind.