Shoulder Tubas?

[jaredsan]

It makes me sad when a tubist calls a member of their own instrument's family a "joke." (yes, it has been said before)

I think Kanstul and Yamaha both make very fine and very fuctional marching convertible/marching exclusive tubas.

*Interestingly, they have a richer, less blatty sound than sousaphones becuase of their tight structures. The shape allows for more creative visuals than can be had on sousaphones/helicons.

[scottw]

It makes me sad when a tubist calls a member of their own instrument's family a "joke." (yes, it has been said before)

Perhaps you should read your poll question a little more closely! Nowhere does it mention the player, just the instrument. I call a terrible Chinese-made ILO (Lee's creation! Instrument Looking Object) a joke because it is a "musical" joke. I call a sub-standard compromise a joke because it purports to be two things and does neither very well. Sad or glad, that's the way it is--live with it!

[Captain Sousie]

In my limited experience, the convertibles do not produce as much sound as a sousaphone in the hands of equally skilled players. I myself get more and better sound on a sousaphone than on a good convetrible. This is not to say that the sousaphone sound is better, but there is more of it. In an area where we do not have the luxury of more than 1-2 sousa/tuba players per band, that can make quite a difference.

I agree that the word 'joke' is a little harsh,

sousie

[Will]

From what I've observed, sousaphones last longer. It's much easier to mishandle a convertible than a sousaphone. I just remember seeing a band with 4 convertibles and hearing the most direct, annoying, awful sound that I've heard from a tuba. Granted these were 3/4 convertibles played by some big guys. I prefer a sousaphone. It just feels better, but then I'm not a huge drum corps fan and have no facination over convertibles like some of my fellow "sousaphonists" in the band.

[Dan Schultz]

I'm glad my marching band days are over! I don't think there is any comparison between the sound of a shoulder horn and a sousaphone. How in the World can you concentrate on playing well when you've got to balance a contra on your shoulder? Gee... I wonder why the military bands don't use shoulder horns?!

[TubaRay]

Gee... I wonder why the military bands don't use shoulder horns?!

Shhh! Knowing the military, it may only be a matter of time until some military-type will "discover" that over-the-shoulder horn look more "uniform."

[Captain Sousie]

If all of the sousaphone players started playing convertibles or contras, no one would have to worry about which way their bits were going, on the sousaphone that is. That is one point in their favour.

[Dan Schultz]

Gee... I wonder why the military bands don't use shoulder horns?!

Shhh! Knowing the military, it may only be a matter of time until some military-type will "discover" that over-the-shoulder horn look more "uniform."

Yeah. I suppose the only thing keeping the contras out of the military bands is tradition.

[hurricane_harry]

i currently use both a sousafone (marching band) and a contra (drum corps) given the choice, at least on the field, both musically and viallually, i would have to choose my contra, but thats only if it is the 6/4 standard. if your useing a 6/4 contra, you should have no problem musically. i feel that, if worn correctly, that one should have no problem keeping a contra on ones shoulder. i'de like to also point out that contras (not convertable tubas) are more eganomic than a sousafone. my only complaint about the contra would be the lack of a field of vision on my left side.

[jaredsan]

Perhaps you should read your poll question a little more closely! Nowhere does it mention the player, just the instrument

He is talking about the instrument, not the player. At least that's how I'm reading it.

^Yes, I meant the instruments themselves. Sorry if the wording was unclear. Also, the title should say "shoulder" rather than "should", but I don't think anyone missed the meaning.


-I must admit, a beat-up sousaphone still looks imposing but a crappy convertible looks plain sad.

[Lee Stofer]

Convertible/contras are here to stay in some areas, but I do notice a couple of things about them; 1) As Bloke mentioned, the ones I see for repair are just plain torn-up, significantly worse than their sousaphone counterparts. So, either local students take care of their sousaphones better than they do over-the-shoulder contras (doubtful), or the sousaphones are just more durable as a school marching tuba (the most likely answer). 2) I'm not sure if the shoulder contras have been around long-enough, and there has been enough research to have reliable evidence one way or another, but I feel that a sousaphone (or strapped-on tuba, for that matter) is easier on one's back, and would make one less likely to have residual back problems later. Playing an instrument as large as a tuba is a somewhat unnatural act anyway, and the lower one can maintain the center of gravity, the better. When wearing a sousaphone, the center of gravity for the instrument is below the shoulder, about mid-chest. With an over-the-shoulder instrument, the center of gravity is above the shoulder, and sitting upon one's left shoulder, creating an unbalanced condition. Yes, there may be people out there strong enough to muscle one of these instruments around, but if I were marching on a wet surface, into the wind, or having to stand for long periods of time, I'd want the instrument that has its weight distributed all the way around me, and distributed as low as possible. Even the traditional European approach of strapping a concert tuba on makes more sense, as the instrument's center of gravity would correspond to the player's mid-abdomen, making it easier on one's back. From college days, through 22 years as an Army bandsman where I marched as part of my job, I have marched with a number of different sousaphones, helicons, and yes, I've marched more than once with a 5/4 Rudi CC, and the sousaphone really gets the job done, and well, if one applies oneself to it.
If I had to use a contra, I think I'd check out the big Kanstul. Otherwise, if getting a new sousaphone today, I'd opt for a Conn 20K, a Yamaha (copy of old Martin sousaphone), or maybe the big Weril sousaphone, which I hope to get to see and play in person sometime this year.

[Dylan King]

The DVD "Blast" sure shows what these things can do.

[Leland]

I don't know, but I cannot imagine, that it's very comfortably and easy, to
balance a big and heavy convertible on my shoulder, isn't it?
Uli

Believe it or not, the bigger the better.

If it's small, most of the weight is forward of the shoulder, which requires the player to hold up the weight with their arms. If it's big, and especially if it has the style of leadpipe which wraps around the right hand, it'll balance right there on the shoulder, and the player's hands are only there to keep it pointed the right direction.

I think they're a viable instrument -- if they're used where they work best. In most band-like situations, I'd use a sousaphone. They do have more visuals for parades and such, they can spin around, they don't need to be carried, and it's really easy to use flip folders with them.

But, in "corps-style" marching shows, I hate sousaphones. I really do. In any direction but straight ahead, they're uncomfortable. They keep banging on my hip, and the weird arm positions don't allow for easy sliding movement. Contras take all of those problems away, getting all the mass above the shoulder line, leaving the lower body to move & breathe easily.

Properly-designed contras are legitimate instruments. It's the bad versions that should be taken off the market (immediately, too, if I had anything to do about it).

**Oh, and weight is weight, whether it's from a sousaphone or a contra. A sousaphone does not rest its weight on anything but the shoulder -- the hips only serve to keep it from rotating. Most sousaphones weigh more than most contras, and it's still going to be supported by your back. That's when proper posture & technique will save you.

[Charlie Goodman]

1) As Bloke mentioned, the ones I see for repair are just plain torn-up, significantly worse than their sousaphone counterparts. So, either local students take care of their sousaphones better than they do over-the-shoulder contras (doubtful), or the sousaphones are just more durable as a school marching tuba (the most likely answer).

I'm fairly sure it's because you set down a contra way more often than a sousaphone, and because horn manuals often have them being slammed into the ground to go to parade rest. Also, about the back argument, as it's been said, they balance pretty well on the shoulder, and the arms basically keep them from falling off. It seems that the main part of the weight is put on the same area of the shoulder, so I don't really see how there could be significant health differences in that respect. However, it seems like holding the tuba at attention out in front of the body would put a lot of strain on the back.
As far as sound, our yamaha convertibles at school seem to sound as good as any sousaphone, and I can hardly see how being shaped more like a normal tuba would hurt the sound.

[Bandmaster]

I've played on various sousaphones for over 35 years and I can say there are good ones and bad ones. If you get a good one it can out play ANY contra style horn made. I have been marching a contra in a senior drum corps for almost three years now and I can give these observations. Contras do look very cool on the field in the drill. They look much more uniform with the rest of the corps. But the only contra that can get a good sound "off" the field, by that I mean getting the sound to the audience, are the BIG bore models. The smaller contras, which is the category where almost all convertibles belong, might as well go into the trash heap. I find no difficulty march a contra from a physical balance standpoint. What make a contra hard on the shoulders and back is when you are holding it in front of you while you are NOT playing. I have attended countless field show conrests and band reviews over the years and the a major difference between the sound of the sousaphone and the contra is resonance. The sousaphone sound will spread and surround you while a contra remains more directional. Also the further away from the ensemble you are, the better a sousaphone sounds. It just projects better over distance than a contra can. It has to be the design of the bell. The wider, flatter sousaphone bell just seems to give the sousphone a big advantage because of its ability to "radiate" sound better.

[Tabor]

Here is some zen-like thinking on the subject straight from one of my pre-kindergarten students.


They make the notes loud.

They go Toot toot toot on the notes real loud.

[ThomasDodd]

I marched a Conn convertible in high school. I much prefered it to the sousaphones I've marched since. It was a rairity though, since it was a front action horn. It was worn on the right shoulder, with the valves, orver the shoulder, near the ear. It was no where near as uncomfortable as a sousaphone is.

I'm still geting used to the left shoulder, Drum Corps bugle. The valve positioning is "interesting". Much better than top action convertibles, though not as natural feeling as the right shoulder mounted front action tuba. Getting used to a GG horn is another story.

The problem I've seen is the convertibles tend to abused more. They get set on the bells, which aren't really as string as they should be, and set down har/dropped a lot. With proper bracing on the outer warps, the other denting wouldn't be a problem either. We did som cool spins/twrils with those horns. Try twrilling a sousaphione around your body. Lots dow the spins, and I'm sure it doesn't extend the horns life.

My horn was in good shape after 3 years, but 3 years later it was trashed. How much was the horn and how much they player?

[Uncle Buck]

When I was in high school, we used Conn convertable tubas for marching. I found the sound of those to be pretty bad, and they couldn't handle much volume without getting blatty. I also could never get the leadpipe to be stable - it always felt rubbery and moved around a lot.

However, we were able to do a pretty neat trick. We could set the tuba down on the rim of the bell, and with the correct technique, we could spin the tubas a full 360 degrees, then land them on our shoulders. I guess we were lucky no one ever broke a collarbone.

Contras are obviously the better choice for a drum and bugle corp where all the instruments are of similar designs. I think they are absolutely a terrible choice for a high school band.

[Leland]

However, we were able to do a pretty neat trick. We could set the tuba down on the rim of the bell, and with the correct technique, we could spin the tubas a full 360 degrees, then land them on our shoulders. I guess we were lucky no one ever broke a collarbone.

Take that idea further and you can do them from about waist level, or on the move, or spin off the shoulder and then back on, or start them horizontally (bell to the right, bow to the left, grab the big pipe at the center with your palm facing away, and spin it up)...

Contras are obviously the better choice for a drum and bugle corp where all the instruments are of similar designs.

It's not just for uniformity, although that was certainly part of the original contra design in the late 50's-early 60's. It's just worlds easier to march that style of drill with a contra than it is with a sousaphone.

I'll say that drum corps tradition has a lot to do with it, too. Even though BBb tubas have been legal since 2000, sousaphones -- and other non-contra-style tubas -- are expressly forbidden. It's just like how you'll never see a contra dot the "i" in Ohio State's band.

I've only been doing both since about 1987, but I hope I learned that much.

[jaredsan]

Why do drum and bugle corps. prefer contras if there are "so many" advantages to having a sousaphone? Maybe sousas blend better with woodwind instruments, or their mellow sound fits in more with the smaller sound created by high school bands.

It all depends on application. (why I believe contras are a "viable" alt. for sousaphones)