Prevent valves from freezing

[tubacharlie]

I'm playing outside this New Years eve and the temperature is forecasted to be in the teens. Any suggestions on how to prevent the vales from freezing during the concert? During my last outside performance In 20 degree weather the vales kept freezing making me stop playing and then having to take the tuba inside to warm up.
Thanks

Tuba Charlie

[nycbone]

**********

[NCSUSousa]

I remember playing a few Friday Nights with temperatures in the teens at kickoff.
I don't remember if we re-oiled very often. I do know we didn't do anything particularly special.
Our band director was from Ohio (more familiar with cold) and he made sure we played every so often to keep our horns warm. I think he gave the woodwinds the night off if it was too cold. I think that was related to the reeds more than the pads.

I've been told that alcohol can be used for cold temp playing, but I'm not sure if that was supposed to go on the valves directly, into the valve oil bottle first, or just consumed by the player. Edit - Just to be clear (since some people can't tell): the 3rd option was a joke. I haven't tried anything other than simply keeping my valves clean, warm and oiled. That works just fine.

[Wu299]

Some guys around here actually let alcohol go through valves with a good effect – just remember to clean your leadpipe after playing. I´ve seen it being poured straight into leadpipe, don´t know anything about any other application.
You can try putting clothes/something with the ability to maintain temperature around the valves and secure it in place with a plastic bag. It doesn´t look nice, but it works if you don´t want alcohol in your instrument. I´ve seen a plastic bag only around the valves of a tuba player, though I´m not sure if it works.
Anyway, breath a lot into the instrument to keep valves working and mouthpiece not freezing.

[knarfman]

Most valve oil probably doesn't freeze above roughly -20° F - or possibly even a lower temp freeze-resistance... (yes...??)

...so wouldn't "dumping valve oil (or much lower cost: lamp oil) down the mouthpipe every few minutes" be a reasonable strategy for discouraging freezing condensation from forming between valves and their casings?

bloke "not my area of expertise at all, and completely willing to immediately concede to those with experience and/or expertise"

This sounds like a good strategy; plus maybe start with thicker oil in the first place so it gets less diluted by condensation (I know it sounds counterintuitive). Earlier this month our church brass ensemble played outside for about 40 minutes with the temperature around 15 (above). Two trumpet players and a trombonist had to go inside and thaw out their horns. I had no problems at all with my euph using Hetman Classic (it's an old horn, so maybe the space in the valves helped too!).

[ASmith]

My school uses spray bottles full of alcohol. Alcohol has an extremely low freezing temp and it mixing with any water on the valves will also lower the freezing temperature of the water. Just beware the fumes you might get.

[saktoons]

A bunch of years ago, I played a cold New Year's Eve gig outdoors with the temperature in the 20's (F). A trumpet player brought a big bottle of Blue Juice and passed it around to all of us to oil up during every break. He swore that it would keep our valves from freezing. My valves stayed free. Because of the Blue Juice, because we played a lot, because of something else...I do not know. I don't do outdoor gigs in the cold any more, but if I did, I think I would bring the Juice.

Years ago, I played Sousaphone in the Syracuse University Marching Band, long before there was a dome in cold, cold Syracuse. For the life of me, I don't ever remember freezing up a valve during a cold game in the stadium, but I also don't remember if we did anything special to keep that from happening. (I used various ingested substances to kill those memory brain cells, apparently.)

[Rotaryclub]

what he said

[Dubby]

Here in Minnesota, we mixed antifreeze with valve oil. Just make sure to clean the valves before and after. Also, don't breathe too much through the horn haha.

[knarfman]

Here in Minnesota, we mixed antifreeze with valve oil. Just make sure to clean the valves before and after. Also, don't breathe too much through the horn haha.

Ultrapure lamp oil fumes - with or without added antifreeze (basically: "valve oil minus added aromatics") aren't the greatest thing to inhale. It's always a matter of concentration and ventilation. I don't like either, but I'd probably rather inhale "antifreeze fumes" (as with a leaky heater core in a car) than "petroleum distillate fumes". Finally, isn't antifreeze water-based (whether pre-mixed, or the type that requires adding water), and how does that work out when mixing it with a petroleum distillate ?

Why not use vodka instead? The Russians seem to think it's a great all-purpose antifreeze, it can be used internally and externally, and it might be safer to inhale the fumes (just don't drink from the horn).

[PMeuph]

As others have said, the secret is really in keeping the horn warm rather than using any additives. I've used valve oil and had a heater nearby with much success. Make sure you clean the valves and slides and put new valve oil beforehand. If there's any water in the horn, it will freeze much quicker.

[NCSUSousa]

Automotive antifreeze is not something to play with. If you have a leaking heater core in your car, fix it and stop breathing in those fumes. I wouldn't use automotive antifreeze anywhere near my horn because of the risk of breathing those fumes. There's a reason why the manufacturers put a warning on the bottle about breathing the fumes... I'll leave it at that.

FYI - Before automotive antifreeze was developed, they just used alcohol mixed with water for the engine coolant in cars. As far as I know, that combo is still used in South America and Cuba because of cost. And yes, they use simple vodka or rum as the base alcohol for that application. It's not uncommon to see alcoholics try to siphon off of a car radiator to get drunk in those places. Occasionally immigrants who used to use that trick back home will show up in the ER (here in the US) with poisoning symptoms who didn't know that we use dangerous chemicals here.

[tbn.al]

I am somewhat surprised that you are concerned about the vales as the higher ground usually gets much colder.

[ghmerrill]

Occasionally immigrants who used to use that trick back home will show up in the ER (here in the US) with poisoning symptoms who didn't know that we use dangerous chemicals here.

Not to mention the non-immigrants who used to use car radiators (containing both glycol residue and lead solder) as stills, eh?

[Art Hovey]

Anti-freeze works. It mixes with the water that condenses in the tuba, and if diluted 50-50 it is as thin as valve oil. I don't worry about inhaling it because I don't inhale through the tuba. You can also use pure glycerine mixed with water if you are worried about toxic effects; it works almost as well.
Alcohol also works, but evaporates quickly and is also soluble in water, so it may not last as long. Rubbing alcohol is also toxic.
I would be careful about using a thicker oil. It won't freeze, but it may become much thicker when cold. Water won't dilute it, but lamp oil will.
If you use a plastic mouthpiece and keep blowing warm air through the horn when you are not playing you can usually keep from freezing up. Inhale through your nose (if possible) and exhale through your mouthpiece, and keep moving the pistons.
I never understood why some thumb rings are so big until I tried to play with thick gloves on.

[johneyt54]

I'm in a marching band in Montana. Playing in -10-degree weather has happened...

What helps is mixing Everclear and blue juice and applying it like it's going out of style. Also, never stop blowing into the horn and moving the valves. One you stop, it's all goes down the tube. However, this creates a problem as all this extra hot, moist air condenses and can freeze and create a blockage (much like a stroke). To fix this: more hydrophobic stuff!

Also, your giant sousaphone bell acts like a radiator, drawing heat off the tuba. I'd recommend using a bell cover to help slow down that process, and whatever you can put on your tuba to block the heat. An extra winter coat, a battery operated heat pad, even gaff taping some had warmers to the valves. Whatever helps.

A portable heater nearby will help tremendously if possible, although I'd caution you about the rapid and extreme temperature changes it can cause and the stress it would put on your instrument. We would go to the bathroom and use the hand dryers: they worked shockingly well.

With all of this work, your tuba may not freeze as fast as it normally would. Just remember, if you feel it going, try to get the valves to freeze in an advantageous position. Good luck, and stay warm!

P.S. As an engineer, I'm looking into ways to keep the tuba warm, and I will update everyone once I find a solution.

[Rick Denney]

Edit: Necro-thread alert!

If you are worried about the moderate toxicity of the ethylene glycol found in automotive antifreeze, use propylene glycol, which has a much lower toxicity. It is sold in gallon jugs at Walmart and similar for use in winterizing potable water systems subject to freezing. Look for "RV Antifreeze". It's dyed red to avoid confusion with automotive antifreeze, which is usually dyed green (but which may be other colors). Automotive antifreeze isn't just an antifreeze, it's also an anti-boil and a strong corrosion inhibitor, so there are a lot of additives in it. Propylene glycol doesn't have all that. And it's cheaper.

Rick "who does not play outdoors in sub-freezing weather, but not because of the tuba" Denney

[Rick Denney]

It seems to me that - rather than putting weird $h!t in the tuba...

What weird stuff are you talking about? Propylene glycol can be found in many foods. Lamp oil, not so much. Automotive antifreeze, never, but mostly because of all the weird stuff it contains in addition to ethylene glycol. Of all the chemicals one might pour down a tuba, the propylene glycol, which is approved for potable water systems, seems the least likely to cause a problem. It's also cheaper than either automotive antifreeze or lamp oil, and it's just as available.

But I personally don't care. Those warmers are nice for hands, but is the plan to duct-tape them to the valves casings? What weird stuff will you use to get the tape residue off?

Rick "do what you want; back to the shadows" Denney

[Three Valves]

NICE!!

(If they work)

It looks more convenient than the burning wick in an asbestos/steel case we used in '77!!

Just taped it to the valve cluster and

[Three Valves]

Lexan mouthpieces would have been nice in the day too.