Advice on switching to CC tuba

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The Big Ben
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by The Big Ben »

Not sure how relevant my opinion is to this discussion but that has never stopped me from saying anything.

1. If you really don't want to get into music education, don't do it. It is hard work and much of that work is unpaid. No matter what level you are working at, there will be many things you are asked to do and things you are expected to do that will not be in your regular work day. Performances, contests, fund raisers are all partially on your own time. Kids can drive you nuts. I know. I've been a high school teacher for 32 years. Kids can drive me nuts. Teaching kids and watching them grow and then go out and make something of themselves has been very rewarding.

2. Personally, I think if you have an excellent tuba in BBb or CC and can play it like a bandit, you will do fine. Punching the correct buttons on the instrument is a very small part of playing the tuba. Rejecting a candidate for not having a CC instrument is probably part of a winnowing process to get the numbers to a manageable level.

3. You can kind of forget about getting one of those symphony jobs that will pay enough to support you and, if you choose, a family and have some kind of desirable lifestyle. In my extended family, there are two orchestra musicians. I am not quite sure with whom they are playing presently but it is in the Bay Area. He plays the harp, she plays the violin. They are in their early 60s and have been professionals since the middle 70s and they play frequently. Lucky for them the "computer revolution" in business happened on their watch and they developed those skills after they became professional musicians. Both have worked in Corporate America with their computer skills and that is how they have made their living. I made the comment to the violin player, "It must be easier to get a playing job as a string player than as a tubist. Orchestras generally have one tuba and there are five or six rows of string players". She chuckled at me as if to say, "You foolish boy", and said how many more string players were being trained as opposed to the number of positions. I don't remember the exact numbers but the gist of it was that conservatories and colleges are putting out hundreds of violin players each year who have no hope of getting a living wage playing position.

If you really want to be a teacher, do it. I can't imagine anything else that I would rather do. But you really have to want it.

If you want to set the goal for yourself of getting a degree in tuba performance and meet the standards of an excellent institution of learning and earn that BA, MA or PhD, do it. Don't fool yourself in thinking that you are guaranteed making a living doing it. College is not a trade school. You do not go in, take your classes, get your grades, get a diploma and then get a job and settle in for the long haul. I don't think that is how it works in America in any field any more. Especially in the liberal arts and stuff like philosophy. But you can play your horn, find another discipline that you like a lot and has the potential to provide you with income and go from there. You can be an engineer or computer worker and have your quintet or quartet on the side or play in an orchestra that pays little but offers an opportunity to perform.

There are many ways that a high level of accomplishment on the tuba can enrich the rest of your life. If you want that, you can have it but you are going to have to figure out a way to make it work.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Uncle Buck »

There is no such thing as "switching" to CC tuba.

Many tuba players choose at some point to learn to play tubas in additional keys. In some circumstances that addition (not a "switch") brings valuable educational and performance benefits. Other times less so.

It is not switching instruments. It is adding a new skill set.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by NCSUSousa »

+1 to the post from 'The Big Ben'. I think he's nailed it.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by swillafew »

The way it was told to me, at one time CC tubas were only made as top of the line horns, and insisting that a student have one was to insist on the student having the best. Today a CC tuba is not always a top of the line horn, but the perceived need for one is very prevalent.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by royjohn »

Danny,

I thnk you've gotten some good advice here, you'll just have to decide whose posts contain it. I agree with those who are telling you NOT to teach if you don't enjoy it. I also agree with those who think you need some other employment options if you take a performance degree. Possibly doubling on trombone and/or string bass would enlarge your performance opportunities after graduation. If you're going to major in performance, it would make sense to ask the tuba prof. you'll be studying with what to do about Bb vs CC. Probably they'll ask you to get a CC. Along with enlarging your musical skills as much as possible, it would be a good idea to have a second major in something very sale-able at which you could support yourself and a family.

I think a University degree is going to cost about $40K at an in-state State university, and as much as $120-$150K at a private institution. You may get some scholarship money, but it is rare to be completely funded, so you can plan on leaving school with at least $20K or so of debt unless your parents can foot the remaining bill. Unless you are a tuba genius (and you say instead that you are a very good player), the competition for a symphony job is going to be fierce. Also, if you have kept abreast of developments, many major symphonies in this country are in sad shape and facing lowered salaries and shorter seasons. It is not a great job outlook and you could be taking auditions for years while doing pick up work in the local polka band, waiting tables, etc. Even if it took you an extra semester or two, it would make sense to maximize the benefit you get out of your education dollars by taking another major. If you have no interest in computers or engineering or other high job demand areas, you might consider other areas in the performing arts, such as arts management or recording engineering, etc. I just would not leave school with a degree that qualified me principally to work as a tuba player in a symphony orchestra.

Good luck in your quest! :D
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by sloan »

Kiltie had it right - don't buy a CC tuba, buy a piano!
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by sloan »

sloan wrote:Kiltie had it right - don't buy a CC tuba, buy a piano!
But make sure it's a CC piano...
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Lee Stofer »

I think the secret is to play so well that people don't know or care what key horn you're using. If you want to play that well, find a teacher that you want to work with, who wants to work with you. In that sort of situation, you'll likely progress a lot, and the instrument will not likely be an issue.

As for the key of the instrument, I'll say this - I've played very nice instruments in BBb, CC, Eb and F. It is the current fashion to belittle BBb tubas and oftentimes their players, but this is short-sighted and many times based on limited experience. A first-line, professional-quality BBb tuba can soundly trump all but the best of CC tubas. And, it is an acoustical fact that BBb tubas are easier to play in-tune. No one tuba is the best one for every circumstance, but a good BBb tuba can cover the bases well at a significantly lower cost than a comparable CC tuba. In recent times, I have noticed that people do not notice whether I''m playing a BBb, CC, Eb or F tuba, but they do notice how well I'm playing. How well you play at any given point is the most important thing.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by roughrider »

I will only speak to the direct switch from BBb to CC. It is something that will take time, effort, and energy. However, it is certainly doable. The most important thing is how YOU sound on the horn, regardless of what key it is in. Lee Stofer's post said it all.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by fairweathertuba »

Well why not get a CC? Personally I had a 3/4 Rudolf Meinl CC for about 15 years and sounded my best ever on it, super versatile horn. Caveat: Most people can never make a living playing tuba, if you are in the 99.99th percentile of tubists worldwide you've got a pretty good chance of doing so. If you want to be a music teacher and really prefer to do that it still won't hurt you any to get a CC horn. CC instruments can be a bit more nimble and versatile for most situations, a good 3/4 CC will get you into many good playing situations if you have a good one and are a good player.

With a nice 3/4 CC you can cover most symphonic material, even Bruckner, Prokofiev, Mahler, Wagner (yeah the heavy stuff) with the right approach, and you can cover a lot of material that orchestrally may usually demand an F tuba, for instance quite a bit of Berlioz.

Also, chamber music, brass quintet, a lot of solo material can also be covered on CC, but not so easily on BBb imo. Sure you can attempt a lot of things on a BBb but why not make life simpler for an all around tubist and go and get a really nice 3/4 CC?

I really dug my Rudy Meinl back in the 80's and 90's and never really got into the Miraphone 186 sound, intonation was probably easier on a Miraphone but no way could a Miraphone ever compete tonally. There may be more choices now, but I am not up to date and can't really recommend anything with a good amount of certainty.

Really a good 3/4 CC doesn't play anything like a really GREAT BBb tuba, there's a big difference for sure. An Eb tuba doesn't play like a CC nor an F tuba. Here we go; there are 4 main tuba keys, BBb, CC, Eb, and F. CC and Eb (sorta but not really) come closest do being most versatile and that's why university profs will recommend everyone get a CC and they are right on I think.
Last edited by fairweathertuba on Thu Jan 09, 2014 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by fairweathertuba »

A piggy is much more of a niche tuba than a 186 or a Rudy Meinl 3/4. For an all around tuba I would not recommend anyone buy one. Prokofiev on a piggy? Not so cool. Mahler on a piggy? Same. Piggy is not all around as much as much as a bunch of better choices.

Sorry, I'v probably gotten offtrack here. Still for the long haul a really versatile CC is going to get someone into more and better playing positions than even the best, easiest playing BBb tuba in the world. Texas may very well have special needs, perhaps a $16,00, 6/4 Miraphone in BBb is necessary for even regional band, in which case I would advocate leaving the state entirely, purely for sanity reasons.
Last edited by fairweathertuba on Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by fairweathertuba »

Well, I'm not particularly stuck on a Rudolf Meinl paradigm and am definitely not stuck on a Cerveny one either. I've never seen a piggy played live at an orchestral concert and would maybe change my mind if someone were able to play perhaps a stunning concert with one on Prokofiev V and I were there to hear how it sounded. There may be better choices definitely, but if given a choice between a piggy and a Rudolf Meinl, would definitely have to go with the Meinl. The Meinl is going to come with 5 valves and will have a reachable a pull-able first valve slide, a couple of things a piggy doesn't have. As for the tone, there is no comparison it's only my opinion and of course you are free to use whatever advertising material you wish to back you up but a Meinl usually has a core to the sound that is distinct and projects in a way that most other instruments (including piggies) do not.

Wait, maybe you can reach the piggy first valve slide, I can't remember exactly the ergonomics.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by fairweathertuba »

Well yeah, I remember the ad copy pretty well too. Definitely a Rudy Meinl advertisement. I remember taking the ad home from school and looking at it every day for practically two years.

What to audition on for Texas all state? Well, really I don't know. What to play on and be listenable to in an actual ensemble, I do have some ideas
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Sandlapper »

I think I read somewhere that William Bell win an audition to a major symphony with an Eb sousaphone? After reading all of this post, I wonder how many folks who recommended switching to CC play that as their primary horn. We human beings have an amazing capacity to think that what we are most comfortable with is normal.

Wasn't part of the argument for switching to CC that it was easier to play with strings (less complicated fingering in sharp keys of orchestral music) than with a BB. Is it easier to play CC with the keys band music is written in, i.e., such as in a community concert band or British Style Brass Band? Perhaps someone who is equally at home with BB and CC could comment on this.

If you love music, there are so many opportunities to play not that were not available 40 years ago, and if you don't end up in an symphony that can offer you a salary to support yourself, where is it that where you are going to have the most opportunity to play? I think that a real issue with many of us struggled with when we were in the transition from high school to college is that we are invested in the ideal of what we want to accomplish - be the world's best tuba player, rocket scientist, author of numerous best selling novels.

Two of the best tuba players I have met in South Carolina are a scientist and a computer expert (who I believe got a performance degree). A third excellent tuba player makes his living running an instrument repair business. Another young man who just graduated from college works in a dental lab. A friend who worked for a major national company for years use to joke about all the plant foremen and supervisors who had PhDs in philosophy or poetry.

For years my wife was an administrator in a school district and with new teachers ( think music ed. if that is the route you choose ) it took about three years to see if the new teachers enjoyed teaching enough to stay for a lifetime career. Most folks who didn't like teaching left within the first three years of beginning teaching.

Revisit Big Ben's comments. Give some thought to what your plan A is going to be and what your plan B is going to be. What do you do to support the rest of your life. Even the military bands have down sized. Remember that if you don't have food, clothing and shelter, its awfully hard to work on being the best tuba player there is.

Richard Nelson Bolles' book, "What Color is Your Parachute?" has some useful information on researching careers, interviewing people to find out what they like about their job and researching careers. Bolles revised that book yearly based on feedback from readers and I believe that it has continued to be revised by a colleague, so the most recent edition would probably be the most useful. Perhaps this maybe helpful to you in thinking a bit more out of the box of where the question is BB or CC. It may be helpful to explore some other issues as well.

Best of luck to you in all your future endeavors.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Jess Haney »

KiltieTuba wrote:Look guys, Danny said he wants to do a MUSIC EDUCATION degree... how many educators (that are tuba players) teach students at the high school or lower level on CC tuba?

He's not going for a performance degree, so I fail to see how any of your responses are helpful. His focus should be on learning the primary school instruments so he can pick up a flute or clarinet and play it, or mash the tune out on the piano. Picking up lessons on piano and maybe buy a couple of "student" horns is far more preferable to laying down serious cash on a CC tuba (because what college professor isn't going to scoff at a Chinese-clone).
I agree. I have done my entire life on a BBb as my primary mostly due to being a brass bandsman. But I feel that waiting til college is great advice and see what your teacher thinks. I have met a lot of college tuba professors that could care less about the key. The only professors that care about CC over BBb that I have met were not even tuba players and were basing their decision based on what their colleagues played in the orchestra when they were in college. CC may have been industry standard for pro horns 10-20 years ago but now most companies offer BBbs at the same quality and design as their top of the line CCs. Just my observation FWIW
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Uncle Markie »

No employer - and I've had quite few of them - I have worked in the music business as ever asked me what key my tuba was built in.

You seem to be doing quite well performing on the BBb - keep striving to be a fine musician who happens to play the tuba.

Assuming you start a career in Music Education - your students will be playing Bb cornets/trumpets, Bb trombones, baritones, euphoniums and sousaphones, and for the most part Bb horns.

College costs a lot - and by a lot I mean more than you are probably imagining at this time. You'll need books, lodging and you'll want to eat once in a while. One good BBb tuba should suffice. If you are music ed major you've got lots to worry about learning besides orchestral excerpts. Work on your piano/keyboard skills and pay attention in string and woodwind methods classes.

Avoid paying too much attention to sweeping generalities espoused by high school band directors.

Good luck!

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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by TubaDanny43 »

58mark wrote:I agree about the versatility of a 3/4 CC, I have owned a piggy for almost 19 years now.

But... If he's auditioning for state, auditioning for college scholarships, and auditioning for placement into college wind ensembles, He really needs a horn that delivers a lush, thick, knock-your-socks-off tone. He's going to be trying out against others with 1291's, thors, pt-6's, ect. Yes, even at the high school level in Texas.

He still ever answered my question (asked twice in two different threads) about which horn he currently plays. If it's not a major upgrade, there's no reason to change to a CC
Very sorry for not replying to your question. (Haven't had much time to read over my responses). At the moment I am playing a BBb St. Petersburg tuba (school owned). Two years ago it was dropped by a senior who just graduated, on its rotors which now the 3rd and 4th are bent and the 4th rotor makes a pretty noticeable "clinging" sound. My school does have other tubas but this is the only one that everything moves on and has a case.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by Leto Cruise »

I would advise you to purchase a 6/4 CC tuba right away since those are the horns winning jobs. It's your best bet in this economy.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by TubaDanny43 »

KiltieTuba wrote:
TubaDanny43 wrote:
58mark wrote:I agree about the versatility of a 3/4 CC, I have owned a piggy for almost 19 years now.

But... If he's auditioning for state, auditioning for college scholarships, and auditioning for placement into college wind ensembles, He really needs a horn that delivers a lush, thick, knock-your-socks-off tone. He's going to be trying out against others with 1291's, thors, pt-6's, ect. Yes, even at the high school level in Texas.

He still ever answered my question (asked twice in two different threads) about which horn he currently plays. If it's not a major upgrade, there's no reason to change to a CC
Very sorry for not replying to your question. (Haven't had much time to read over my responses). At the moment I am playing a BBb St. Petersburg tuba (school owned). Two years ago it was dropped by a senior who just graduated, on its rotors which now the 3rd and 4th are bent and the 4th rotor makes a pretty noticeable "clinging" sound. My school does have other tubas but this is the only one that everything moves on and has a case.
So you're playing on a damaged tuba? Why not have them repair it?
The way I described above is actually the way it came back from the repair shop. I don't know how it was before it was it was sent off.
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Re: Advice on switching to CC tuba

Post by bill »

Interesting that no one has yet suggested that eventually you will have to master a bass tuba as well as a contra bass tuba. So, here you are worrying about CC vs. BBb and no one mentions F or Eb. I think Lee Stofer has it right and I have played beside Lee, on Eb, and he is a terrific Eb player but plays everything very well. I was also playing in an Orchestra once upon a time, hired specifically to play Arnold's 5 Cornish Dances, which has two lovely tuba solos in it. During sectionals, I was asked to play both solos and complemented, afterward, on how well they sounded. The instructor was the low brass instructor for a local college. He asked me what sort of CC I was playing and I told him it was a Willson 3400s Eb. He was astounded; he was certain I had been playing a CC. I played it on Eb because I believe it was written for that horn, not a CC or BBb (both of which I can play, as well as F). We see and hear what we want to see and hear and, unless there is a compelling reason for a certain horn, play what works best for you and the composer.
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