valve oils

[TUBAMUSICIAN87]

In your oppinion what is a better valve oil regular store brands or synthetic?

[JayW]

well they both can work well... Some synthetics however do not play well with others......so you must be careful to only use that particular brand... but if you dont want any trouble and just a good oil go with Hetmans.... it is one of the best , synthetic but does not cause problems like some (e.g. Binak)

[Will]

Blue Juice. I wouldn't use anything else.

[Arthur plays tuba]

All cass, it never sticks my pistons

[Captain Sousie]

Viper oil, light and fast.

[Tubaman485]

I like Fat Cat or a good one for rotary tubas is sewing machine oil. But its all preference and climate. In AZ all cass sometimes dries out but its never usually a problem with Fat Cat or Blue Juice.

Josh

[Captain Sousie]

Just never mix Al Cass and Blue Juice. I tried that once before anyone warned me...man, that sucked.

Sousie

[Will]

I have a fun story about Scented Valve Oil.

"Gag" I can't imagine. My practice horn in marching band smelled like beer, but I don't think it was the valve oil.

[Billy M.]

Just never mix Al Cass and Blue Juice. I tried that once before anyone warned me...man, that sucked.

Sousie

Isn't that because Al Cass is a petroleum distillate and Blue Juice is an actual oil?

[Rick Denney]

In your oppinion what is a better valve oil regular store brands or synthetic?

I prefer the synthetics, but only because of Hetman oils and greases.

I have also tried BiNaK, and it was fine at first, but the longer I went between thorough cleanings, the gummier it got. Finally, I cleaned it all out with Naptha and went back to Hetmans.

I use Alisyn in my Yamaha. I tried all the standard oils at the time, including Blue Juice, Al Cass, purified lamp oil, and so on, with many cleanings, and nothing ever worked when I played outdoors (which was my gig at the time). The first valve kept sticking. Finally, I cleaned it again, and tried Alisyn, and it worked. I've discovered Hetman since that time, though, and will probably try it after the next cleaning.

Rick "who has tried just about everything from lamp oil to BiNaK" Denney

[Captain Sousie]

Isn't that because Al Cass is a petroleum distillate and Blue Juice is an actual oil?

I believe so.

Sou

[ThomasDodd]

Isn't that because Al Cass is a petroleum distillate and Blue Juice is an actual oil?

Rick, help me out here. What would be the difference in a petro distillate and an oil?

I though distillates were oils?

Not the same as olive or corn oil, or even fish oil, but still an oil.

[Ryan_Beucke]

Oils are just like mouthpieces, everyone has their preference. However, there are some general rules. Synthetics generally last longer than natural oils, and synthetics usually don't work with any oil than themselves.

I've tried a whole ton of oils looking for the best for my yamaha, and found that the alisyn is really good but not the best for the yamaha alloy, and Pro Oil Hybrid is the longest lasting and best natural oil for my money. However, I've started using Hetmans, and it's by far the best overall oil I've found. Really works well with the Yamaha alloy. Plus I just dumped it on the natural oil that was already on my valves, and it still works great!

[Ryan_Beucke]

My helicon is currently running on a mix of Yamaha and Alisyn. The valves are suffering from wear and really aren't sealing too well, but the thick Yamaha oil seems to make them seal better. The Alisyn is really the lubricant and the Yamaha is there as a space filler, and they are not having problems to this point. It probably has to do with the chemical percent composition, but we won't even begin to go into that.

Wow, did someone tell you about mixing those, or did you just try it? I heard that Alisyn will lock up when mixed with anything, I'd be too afraid of doing that.

[Rick Denney]

Rick, help me out here. What would be the difference in a petro distillate and an oil?

None, as far as I know. Oil is a heavy fraction of petroleum, and is what remains when the lighter fraction evaporate (either naturally or on purpose, such as to make gasoline). It's made mostly of long-chain hydrocarbons. If the chains are very long, they may be solid at room temperature, which is paraffin. The chains may have branches, making various kinds of waxes.

Grease is a mixture of oil and soap, with the soap acting as an emulsifier to keep it thick enough to stay where you put it.

Lighter oils, such as those that might be used for valves, are just lighter fractions of petroleum. They (and the heavier fractions, for that matter) are separated by using a distillation process, which is why both are petroleum distillates.

Of course, not all oils are petroleum distallates. Some are derived from animal fats, and others from plant fats.

But they are all long-chain organic hydrocarbons and they are all basically the same.

Synthetics aren't necessarily hydrocarbons, though some are. One branch of synthetic oils uses glycols and polyglycols, which are not compatible with petroleum oil. Some are water soluble, which would be bad as a valve oil. Brake fluid is an example. Silicones are similar, but usually have too high a viscosity for our application. They are not compatible with anything, either.

Then, there are the polyolesters, which are used in jet engines because of their wide temperature range compared to mineral oils. They also have a very low evaporation. But they are aggressive to some seals and gaskets, and they are not compatible with mineral oils, though they are compatible with polymerized alpha olefin oils.

Polymerized alpha olefin oils are synthesized hydrocarbons that are compatible with natural oils. They are also non-toxic and highly stable.

The others, including dialkylbenzenes and phosphate esters, that are more toxic and thus unsuited to this application.

I'll bet that the synthetics that are incompatible with mineral oil such as AliSyn and BiNaK are made from polyolesters, and those that are compatible, such as Hetman, are made from polymerized alpha olefin synthesized hydrocarbons. But that is just guessing.

Rick "running out of knowledge on this subject in a hurry" Denney

[Dan Schultz]

.....synthetics usually don't work with any oil than themselves. ......

That may hold true with some motor oils. However, Hetmans is said to be compatible with other lubricants (I didn't say ALL! ). I've used Hetmans for several years on hundreds of horns that I've repaired and never had a complaint with it causing problems with working with other lubricants. I don't bother to ask what type of valve oil is being used on horns I get in for repair.

[ThomasDodd]

Rick, help me out here. What would be the difference in a petro distillate and an oil?

None, as far as I know.

That's what I though. Not sure what the original statement ment then.

And I was loking forward to you're long detailed post:)

I'll bet that the synthetics that are incompatible with mineral oil such as AliSyn and BiNaK are made from polyolesters, and those that are compatible, such as Hetman, are made from polymerized alpha olefin synthesized hydrocarbons. But that is just guessing.

From the AliSyn MSDS
"Lubricant is a synthetic Hydrocarbon Basestock with proprietary additives."

That MSDS was an interesting read too.

Rick "running out of knowledge on this subject in a hurry" Denney

Which far exceeded the knowledge of most who will read the post:)
How you remember the compounds by name is beyond me.

-Thomas

[Rick Denney]

How you remember the compounds by name is beyond me.

That's easy. I looked them up on the Internet. If I have any knowledge, it's knowing which of the bazillion links Google returns that might bear fruit, and which are just trying to sell something.

AliSyn's MSDS suggests that it's made from polymerized alpha olefin with perhaps an added polyolester. If that's the case, it should be similar to Hetman and be compatible with mineral oils. The polymerized or synthezied hydrocarbons should he compatible. It's the polyglycols that are not. In fact, of the synthetic oils I read about, only the polyglycols and silicones are incompatible with mineral oil. Since AliSyn had the reputation for not being compatible, I assumed it was one of those.

It may be that AliSyn claims incompatibility to prevent users from mixing the products, which might ruin the effect of the lubricant.

Rick "who KNOWS that BiNaK is utterly incompatible with mineral oil" Denney

[elimia]

Hetman oil is fantastic Rick. I gave it a try upon your suggestion and I'm hooked. No more petroleum distillates for me please!

Ryan

[Rick F]

For those who use Hetman oils but don't care much for the 'eye-dropper' package (it can take 2 hands), be patient. Joe Hetman told me he knows that many don't especially care for the new 'eye-dropper' bottle, but it's the only one they could find with a 'child-proof' cap. Since it's synthetic, the govt requires them to use a bottle with a child-proof cap. They're trying to find another supplier that can make a standard nozzle-tipped bottle with a 'child-proof' cap.

FWIW, I refill my older empty Hetman bottle with the oil out of the dropper bottle. The nozzle snaps off fairly easily.