TubeNet

Hello, TubeNet.
I've been having a reoccurring problem that occurs either when I play for a long period of time or just playing loudly for a short amount of time. The palate in the back of my throat between my mouth and nose 'breaks open' and when I try to continue playing only about half of the air ends up getting into the horn and the rest leaks out my nose, making it impossible to continue playing.
I haven't been able to find any 'quick fixes' for this problem and so far, simply not playing for a couple hours is the only solution I've found.
What I'm wondering is if if this is a common problem among brass players with a solution that can be determined here, or if this is a more rare medical problem that needs to be addressed with a doctor.
I've spoken to my band director about it and she shays she's never heard of such a thing occurring however a couple of other students in our band have had the some thing happen to them. This leads me to believe that it's the result of some type of incorrect technique (maybe I'm playing in such a manner that puts too much pressure on the back of my throat)
Like I said, it occurs in two situations, either when I'm playing extremely loud for more than a few minutes at a time or when I'm playing normally (throughout a whole range of dynamics/articulations/etc...) but for long amounts of time (like for an hour or more) know that the solution to the former is 'don't play so dang loud' but the latter disturbs me more. Even if I avoid extremely loud playing the endurance problem still exists and if I don't figure out what I'm doing wrong/what's wrong with me soon, I won't be able to play any more long-lasting gigs.

So basically what I want to ask is:
-What is this?
-What could I be doing incorrectly?
-What could I do to fix this?

Thanks, everyone.

Edit - Wow. I see the posts below. (Much better than mine - )

This creeps up on me too when I'm not conscious of it. Practice playing something simple (like a scale, long tones, etc.) with your left hand pinching your nose closed. Remember this feeling when you remove your hand, and play the same thing, focusing on correct exhalation technique (slow, hot air and all that stuff)

For me, it is/was the result of poor loud playing technique. I had associated playing loudly with forcing the air, which meant 1.) I couldn't play as loudly 2.) I was losing air through my nose. The sooner I disassociated decibels with force, the sooner I corrected the problem. Your teacher might have a clearer, better explanation.

if this is a more rare medical problem that needs to be addressed with a doctor

Run, don't walk to see an ENT! Get a doctor's opinion and if you can find an ENT that is a tuba player (like I did) run even faster.

brianf wrote: Run, don't walk to see an ENT! Get a doctor's opinion and if you can find an ENT that is a tuba player (like I did) run even faster.

I intend too see an ENT in the near future about this (and yeah hopefully they understand brass instruments)

Curmudgeon wrote:...I had a student about 25+ years ago that fell into the habit of playing with their throat so open that the muscles involved in sealing the soft palate would quickly tire and air would leak out his nose...
I also had a middle school student that had an incomplete palate.

I'd never considered these as possibilities. I'll bring these up when I meet with and ENT and they might be able to see of one of these is the problem.

Biggs wrote:This creeps up on me too when I'm not conscious of it. Practice playing something simple (like a scale, long tones, etc.) with your left hand pinching your nose closed. Remember this feeling when you remove your hand, and play the same thing, focusing on correct exhalation technique (slow, hot air and all that stuff)

For me, it is/was the result of poor loud playing technique. I had associated playing loudly with forcing the air, which meant 1.) I couldn't play as loudly 2.) I was losing air through my nose. The sooner I disassociated decibels with force, the sooner I corrected the problem. Your teacher might have a clearer, better explanation.

Glad I'm not the only one this happens to.
I know I'm almost certainly using improper playing technique when it comes to the 'loud' playing that I was referring to in the original post because this usually happens at pep band games where blatting the sousaphone like a giant kazoo seems to hype the crowd up (a whole other topic that's been debated on here, I know)
But the problem rarely, if ever happens in concert or marching band, where I put more emphases on tone and blending with the ensemble. Maybe I should back off a little at pep band and worry less about getting the audience excited and worry more about my health .

This is most common in instrumentalists that require a high intraoral pressure (oboe, clarinet). For most people, SVPI (Stress Velopharyngeal Insufficiency) can usually be fixed by changes in technique. Some lessons with a good teacher to work on relaxed and efficient sound production will likely improve things a great deal, though as you say, it doesn't really happen in concert so it's not much of an issue anyway.

This is worth reading: https://www.clarinet.org/clarinetFestAr ... archive=30" target="_blank" target="_blank

Tubainsauga wrote:This is most common in instrumentalists that require a high intraoral pressure (oboe, clarinet). For most people, SVPI (Stress Velopharyngeal Insufficiency) can usually be fixed by changes in technique. Some lessons with a good teacher to work on relaxed and efficient sound production will likely improve things a great deal, though as you say, it doesn't really happen in concert so it's not much of an issue anyway.

This is worth reading: https://www.clarinet.org/clarinetFestAr ... archive=30" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I needed to know! I'll research this more and try to see what I can do to work around it. Thanks again.

This is a problem that some divers have, although it is a problem for completely different reasons. One of the emergency procedures that must be mastered during the training process is the ability to breath through the mouth without allowing any water to enter through the nose. This is critical in case the diving mask is knocked off or develops a leak. Some people can do this automatically while others struggle with the technique. The controlling muscles are voluntary and can be trained.

SousaWarrior, you have said that your problem occurs after you have played for a long time, or played loudly … in other words, when you are fatigued. Do you think that it's possible that the problem may always be there, but that it is exacerbated when you get tired?

If you have access to a pool and snorkel you could try this simple training exercise recommended by divers. Go to the shallow end and submerge your head (at least enough to cover your nose) while you attempt to breath through the snorkel. If you have difficulty doing this, your problem may be present whenever you play, even before you are fatigued. That in a sense would be a good thing because then you could begin to train yourself to be able to control the problem. It's always easier to master a subtle technique when you are relaxed than when you are fatigued.

Just another thought to put into the mix, in case some of the other interesting ideas don't work out.

Hup

hup_d_dup wrote: SousaWarrior, you have said that your problem occurs after you have played for a long time, or played loudly … in other words, when you are fatigued. Do you think that it's possible that the problem may always be there, but that it is exacerbated when you get tired?

If you have access to a pool and snorkel you could try this simple training exercise recommended by divers. Go to the shallow end and submerge your head (at least enough to cover your nose) while you attempt to breath through the snorkel. If you have difficulty doing this, your problem may be present whenever you play, even before you are fatigued. That in a sense would be a good thing because then you could begin to train yourself to be able to control the problem. It's always easier to master a subtle technique when you are relaxed than when you are fatigued.
Hup

Thanks for the tip. I'll try this once this bitter cold winter is over and the pools start opening.

bloke wrote:A lifelong friend of mine (a very talented saxophone player) was born with a cleft palate. Funny grunty noises would come out of his nose.

Perhaps, the tuba requires more air than the saxophone, and such losses of air have more of an effect than "funny nose noises".

The only noise my problem creates is isolated to a kind of snoring sound in the back of my throat, it's only audible through the horn, though. Because the airflow is disrupted so much only a small amount of air actually makes it into the horn resulting in a very quiet, thin sound accompanied be a horrid raspy snorting sound.

I think I'll toy around with some of the exercises and warm-ups mentioned in the article and combine that with whatever advise I get from the ENT. Thanks again, everyone for the help!