helicon with odd 3rd valve

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:05 pm

I got my hands on a nice, estimated 70 or more years old 3-valved BBb helicon. It has a very warm sound to it, turning real nasty when forced, so itÂ´s a great horn for fooling around on carnival parades. So hereÂ´s the fun part:
Usually the third valve will provide three semitones of tubing, like a combination of 1st and 2nd valve, providing somewhat sharp Cs and Gs. On this one, the 3rd valve has 4 semitones.
Thus, Cs and Bs are in a kind of better tune, a little lipping provided. I just wondered if this valve setup was familiar to anybody and if it was common on 3-valved tubas of certain brands ??
Yours Hans

r smith · Post by **r smith** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:09 pm

Do you have any pictures that you can post?

Dean E · Post by **Dean E** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:17 pm

tubeast wrote:I got my hands on a nice, estimated 70 or more years old 3-valved BBb helicon. . . .

Using a tuner, what pitches are produced on the open BBb and F? Possibly, the helicon has been corrected to modern pitch, but originally was designed for a low pitch. Maybe the third valve tubing was designed longer and never shortened for modern pitch. Just a guess.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:21 pm

tubeast wrote:...Usually the third valve will provide three semitones of tubing, like a combination of 1st and 2nd valve, providing somewhat sharp Cs and Gs. On this one, the 3rd valve has 4 semitones.

There have been a range of different uses for the third valve, but by 70 years ago it would have been pretty standard, unless the instrument was custom made for someone who wanted it that way. I wonder if you helicon is actually older than you think?

Rick "who would also like to see pictures" Denney

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:24 pm

The "ministerial" system (4 semitone) 3rd valve was quite common on old French and Belgian instruments. I have a French method book from about 1920 that describes this as the preferred system.

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:15 pm

Hi again,

thanks for your helpful comments. I took a closer look at the horn and took some pics, too. IÂ´ll have to figure out how to post them, though.
The helicon tunes to the flat side of 440 hz, and it doesnÂ´t look like somebody messed with the tubing, so I guess it was designed that way. The bell measures 404 mm (16"), the bodyÂ´s outer dia. is 30", so it doesnÂ´t seem that big to me.
But how about a leadpipe of 50" that will enter the valve section at 3rd valve, leaving it at the first ? Talking about long German leadpipes!!
ThereÂ´s a plaque soldered to the bell reading "Aug. Clemens Glier, Markneukirchen / S, Neue Strasse (?28?). That must be a firm in Markneukirchen, Saxony, so IÂ´ll go ask the VMI people if they know of a craftsperson by that name.
Read Ya

Hans

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:40 pm

It wouldn't surprise me one bit, given the age of the instrument, that it plays perfectly in tune at A435, the old "International Standard" low pitch.

Anterux · Post by **Anterux** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:33 pm

In the begin of last century (XX) there was many tubas in Europe that had that tuning of the 3rd valve: 4 semitones.
Even today, some tubas have a long 3rd valve slide so that when it is pulled out it can give that tuning.

Lars Trawen · Post by **Lars Trawen** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:17 am

Anterux wrote:Even today, some tubas have a long 3rd valve slide so that when it is pulled out it can give that tuning.

Yes, that's correct. MW25 and 200 do have that possibility although built new today. I have a MW200, bought new 8 years ago, and sometimes I extend the 3rd valve tubing to 4 semitones. Normally I use 3rd valve instead of 1+2. Especially when having lots of flats (more than 5) I extend the 3rd valve. I can then use 3 instead of 2+3, that makes life a little easier.

Zum Wohl,
Lars

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 5:11 am

tubeast wrote:......
ThereÂ´s a plaque soldered to the bell reading "Aug. Clemens Glier, Markneukirchen / S, Neue Strasse (?28?). That must be a firm in Markneukirchen, Saxony, so IÂ´ll go ask the VMI people if they know of a craftsperson by that name.
Read Ya

Hans

I've found some references on the net. http://www.schnadt.privat.t-online.de/dewit.htm

The housenumber (must be 88, later it's 107) places the instument around 1900

If there's a library in the neighbourhood, you could try if they have the New Langwill index. Mine unfortunately doesn't. (I'm planning on getting it though)

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:29 am

All that Langwill has on an August Clemens Glier is that he was a brass instrument maker in Markneukirchen from 1878 until after 1908. It also says that the company was established as SI (stringed instrument) and MI (musical isntrument) dealers in 1878.

They list another Glier operating in "Neukirchen," starting with Christian Gottlieb in 1750, and continuing for 5 generations. They operated as C.G. Glier, and don't seem to be related to August, however C.G. Glier was said to be related to the "Klier" family from "Bohemia" (mostly known as the Czech republic today).

From this I would guess that your instrument was made between 1878 and 1908.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:34 am

Lew wrote: From this I would guess that your instrument was made between 1878 and 1908.

You can narrow that down to before 1903 because they moved to another number (107) in that year. (Or they changed the numbering in the street)

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:41 am

corbasse wrote:
Lew wrote: From this I would guess that your instrument was made between 1878 and 1908.
You can narrow that down to before 1903 because they moved to another number (107) in that year. (Or they changed the numbering in the street)

My edition of Langwill doesn't say anything about this. Is there another source from which you are finding this information? I'm always interested in additional references.

corbasse · Post by **corbasse** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 7:48 am

The link in my first post in this thread. It's a German site with data from an address book published in the early 1900's. The 1903 edition has another housenumber than the 1900 edition.
Actually both Gliers mentioned in the Neue StraÃŸe change numer in that edition so they probably renumbered the street. If someone feels like visiting Markneukirchen town hall to be sure?;)

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 5:23 pm

Hey people,
thanks a lot for the hints that you provided. That sure was more than I hoped for.
Hans

r smith · Post by **r smith** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:58 am

Were you able to take any pictures and post them? This sounds like a interesting horn.

tubeast · Post by **tubeast** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:08 pm

I know this is sort of an ancient thread, but some people requested to see pics of this horn, and IÂ´m just trying out the different posting modes available.

The following should be a full view of the helikon:

Whoa!! That took obnoxiously long to be visible on the post.
Pic was large beyond courtesy.
If youÂ´re interested, hereÂ´s the link:
http://img275.echo.cx/img275/1300/10013233pp.jpg

Number two should come out as a thumbnail of the valve section in a closeup:

The third attempt should just be a link to me "wearing" this horn: http://img275.echo.cx/img275/4699/10001412ti.jpg

IÂ´m courious which turned out to be visible.

Kevin Hendrick · Post by **Kevin Hendrick** » Thu May 19, 2005 7:52 pm

tubeast wrote:IÂ´m courious which turned out to be visible.

The second one appeared as a thumbnail, and the first and third were links, as you intended. Nice pictures, by the way -- thanks for posting them!

TubeNet