"Lean-sounding" Piston F Tubas?

[Rick Denney]

So if someone was looking for a non-tubby-sounding F with pistons, what's on the list of horns to try??

If you mean F tubas that sound like F tubas and still have piston valves, the list is not long. Most of the piston F's are huge and sound like small contrabass tubas.

The Yamaha 621 would be high on that list. Just don't expect it to sound like a rotary F--it won't. But my experience with my B&S over the last year has changed my conception of what I can do with the 621, vis a vis mouthpiece. I've been experimenting with the 621 using the Finn 4 that I use on the B&S, and that's the first time I've had the notion that the 621 could really work, even in the low register, with an F tuba mouthpiece. It has unfuzzed a lot of the sound I used to get on that instrument, too.

Sigh. Joe was right.

The 2182 would be on the list, too. But it doesn't sound like a 182 to my ears--it's its own beast.

Rick "wondering what's wrong with rotary F's if that's the sound you want" Denney

[Rick Denney]

Rick, you're quite right (of course)!
I guess my choices are pretty limited but I'll try them first and doubtless alongside some rotary F's (I do like the playing of the PT's and Miraphones). The rotors might win out in the end but I wanted to be sure I hadn't overlooked anything along the way.

As long as you are going to try rotary F's anyway, see if you can find a pre-Parantucci B&S Symphonie to try. There's something about that vintage of B&S that has its own character and is therefore less generic than later B&S's.

Rick "who compared his side-by-side with PT's, Miraphones, etc., and found it to be the most interesting" Denney

(Edit: The Hirsbrunner HB-12 just came to mind. I played one briefly at Army, and though it pretty amazing; large, but still an F. But it's soooooo expensive.)

[harrell]

I played the Gronitz at Midwest back a couple of months ago. It played with a more compact sound than most piston F's these days. It would make the list I think with a shallow MP.

If price is not a problem, the HB 12 would probably be lean sounding with the right MP. It is not as big as the willson and has an F sound.

The little Yamaha yfb621 is definitely lean sounding. Almost like a euphonium. It is too lean for me.

As Rick said, there are some rotary F's that have a very lean sound. PT10 being one of them. The MW45 is worth a try.

I'm sure I'll think of more as soon as I log off.

[WoodSheddin]

I concur with Rick. The Hirsbrunner F is a pretty darned good horn. I personally think the Hirsbrunner and the MW 45slp are the only 2 piston F's I would be happy owning overall. If I needed an F to do it all even on my brain dead days then the Yamaha 822 big F would be it. I don't need that type of horn and don't care all that much for the sounds I have heard come out of them, but they are a GREAT player's instrument.

I also concur that if you want a rotary instrument with pistons then just buy a rotary valved instrument. I would believe that you would adapt to it and perhaps even become fond of it.

[KevinBock]

If you want a lean sounding piston F tuba, just buy any piston F tuba and play it the way you want it to sound, theres no special production model on horns that makes them one way or another, you simply just work differently. I own a 2182 and its as simple as trying to make it sound big or small, whichever I want, that being said I bet you'd be shocked at how many F tubas can sound ginormous if played properly. So pick one that feels good, because sound is right behind the mouthpiece.

[WoodSheddin]

I also thought about a PT 10P, but I've never played one I really liked.

I have only played on maybe 1 or two PT10p's and did NOT like them at all. They played like someone took the ubiquitous PT-10 and threw on a set of piston valves for people who wanted the PT-10 sound but wanted piston valves. Sounds familiar huh?

[Aaron Tindall]

The Hb-12 at the Army conference that I believe Rick mentioned was the one at Baltimore's display. That is my horn(on consignment, hint, hint, go and buy it!), and it plays phenonemenal with the right mouthpiece(bobo solo). Has a crystal clear sound, and a very straight forward projection. I just have happened to change alot as a tuba player and after trying the 2182 I found that it suited me better than the HB at the moment. I wish I could own both, but its not possible. I can honestly say that one wouldn't be disappointed with either model. Just my.02 worth-Aaron Tindall
Pt-6, MW 2182(silver w/gold), YEP842S

[Rick Denney]

The Hb-12 at the Army conference that I believe Rick mentioned was the one at Baltimore's display.

Yes, that was it. Fabulous horn--I fell in love with it instantly. I told Dave Fedderly it was wonderful, and he said he'd take all my other instruments in trade. I told I'd still have to write a check, and he asked me what kind of car I had. I told him it didn't matter--the bank owned it.

If you want an idea of what the Hirsbrunner can sound like in masterful hands, listen to the Hans Nickel CD, Cantuballada. He used the HB on that recording, and it completely changed my F tuba concept to something less deep, more colorful, but still with a happy fatness. There was nothing contrabass-like in his sound. I got the same feeling listening to Oystein Baadsvik get that intense sound out of the little Miraphone Eb. An intense wall of sound.

Rick "who thinks the old B&S has similar characteristics on a different scale" Denney

[Contramark]

I have owned two 45slp's and now I play on a yamaha 621F. The best thing about the 621 is how small the valves are. I was killing myself with the 45slp (because I have very small hands). When I went to audition for grad schools, some people told me that I was playing my 45slp like a C tuba. "This isn't the way F tubas are supposed to sound." I disagreed with hima little, but to each their own.

That is an awesome F tuba. It has a very good C, even though I don't think i would use this as my "play everything" horn. I would recommend trying these horns out. If you are anywhere near where or when i am going to be somewhere you can try my 621f.

Mark

[Steve Oberheu]

I'll put in my vote for the Hirsbrunner F, though I would say I prefer the HB-10 to the HB-12 (if I'm getting the numbers right...correct me if I'm not). The 10 is the medium bore while the 12 is the large bore big brother. 4 pistons, 1 rotor.

I own an HB-10 which I'm totally in love with. It's supple, light, fluid and clear as can be, but it can be strong as well. It's got a lively shimmer to the sound that I don't find with the large bore. Low register is solid as can be, intonation is very good (flat G at top of staff, sharp Bb just above it...that's about it). It sounds like a great F tuba!

I'd definitely put this one on your list to try.

[Tom Holtz]

You want an F tuba that doesn't sound like a CC tuba, with pistons... yeah, very short list. I'm playing on a Yamaha 621, and yes, it is, shall we say, lean. I'll agree with the previous comment that it can be almost a euphonium. There's a lot on this thread I agree with, like the vintage B&S F-tuba sound is super cool, that the old Alexander F tubas had a killer sound if you got one that wasn't tuned by Satan himself, and that there are a lot of F tubas that are trying to sound like CC tubas. Me no likey.

The Yamaha 621 I have was the first F tuba, and one of the very few of all the F's I've tried, where C below the staff blew openly and consistently like the rest of the horn. Why do so many rotary-valve F tubas, and a few piston-valve F tubas to boot, have "Low C Disease"? I have no idea, maybe it's just my lousy perception. I grabbed the 621 when I had the chance.

I'll also agree with making the horn sound like you want it to sound. Yes, the 621 is a peashooter. It doesn't sound like my 'Brunner, never will. However, I'm playing the thing all the time right now, doing quintet work, working up recital stuff, and using it for dixieland gigs on the road because it's the only horn I have small enough to go on the airlines without oversize charges (knock on wood--three round-trip flights and counting...) It takes some work getting a dark sound out of it, but it's in there. I can remember taking lessons with Jim Self when he was playing one of these horns, he probably chose to bring his 621 to Tempe, AZ, for the same reasons I take mine on the road. He was money on a 621. Money. Roger Bobo didn't sound too shabby on his 621, either.

There are lots of times I wish it had a bigger sound. However, I find that for every time I wish that, there's a conductor (choral or orchestral) telling me there's still too much tuba, or something blends really well in the quintet because it's not tubby, or I can really kick a lot of backside on a bass line because the intonation rocks on the Yamaha and all of the low register notes hit right in the slot all of the time, every time, or I've just done a three-hour gig standing up and my back isn't killing me... hey, tiny tubas rule! (BLASPHEMY!! )

I am shopping around, keeping my eye out for an F or Eb with a bit more beef than the 621. Of course, the criteria for a different axe are that it has to be as portable as the 621, have intonation as good as or better than the 621, a low register as locked down as the 621, play as consistently up and down as the 621, absolutely NO LOW C DISEASE, and last but not least, I don't want it to sound like a CC tuba.

I've already got one of those.

[Dylan King]

I recently replaced my six valve Rudy F with a 621F, a 622 Doug Yeo bass trombone, and a Holton MF Superbone. Thank you ebay.

The Rudy has the purest, darkest orchestral sound one would want in a tuba, but the low register was too complicated. The six valves played the thing in tune, but the low CC didn't growl. The 621 plays so easily. The intonation isn't an issue, except high G, which I can lip up. And being so small I am able to juggle it in my act along with an m&m and a bowling ball. It has turned my tuba juggling career around.

All kidding aside. The 621F is plenty big if you give it what it needs and is just so easy to play compared to many other F tubas. Find something that not only sounds good, but something that will make you look good with the least amount of effort.

Bigger isn't always better and better isn't always bigger, but a butler is bigger than a beagle and a banker is richer than a begger.

[Rick Denney]

...The Yamaha 621 I have was the first F tuba, and one of the very few of all the F's I've tried, where C below the staff blew openly and consistently like the rest of the horn. Why do so many rotary-valve F tubas, and a few piston-valve F tubas to boot, have "Low C Disease"?...

We've batted this around quite a lot, and have never come up with an answer. The low C on the old B&S seems to me better than on the newer B&S F tubas. It's certainly not as easy to blow as on the 621, the 822, or the Willson. On mine, the 3-5 combination is more solid feeling than 4.

I've been using the B&S for quintet lately just because I want to play it enough to understand it thoroughly, but at some point I will go back to the 621 for that application, though with a different approach than I used to have.

The problem I had with the 621 that prompted the purchase of the Symphonie was lack of projection. Our band had played a band transcription of the Damnation of Faust, and I used an F to provide something like what Berlioz had in mind. At the time, the 621 was my only F (not counting my project horn), and I felt like I was flapping my lips out the bell trying to compete with the band. The trumpet players sitting in front of me were sustaining injuries, but Gil said afterwards he felt like the sound did not penetrate the band and get out front. The only way I could have made the 621 louder was to go to a shallow cup mouthpiece and go trombone-like.

When I play-tested F tubas a year ago at the Army conference, I tried the Symphonie against a range of other F's, icnluding a 621, a PT-10, a 181, the prototype Miraphone (182? 281?), a Meinl-Weston 182, and a 46SLZ. I was quite impressed with the Miraphones and with the 46SLZ. But all of them had a deep sound that was what seemed to me a generic CC sound. The Symphonie had a color the others lacked. I conducted a projection test by recruiting Dr. Sloan to stand 20 feet away and listen to me play the same lick on various tubas. He could hear the Symphonie clearly, but when I played on the 621, he held his hand to his ear. Elephant Rooms are good places to test projection, even if nothing else, heh, heh.

But, as I said, I'll be going back to the Yamaha at some point for quintet, because for the small ensemble it's a more versatile instrument, for me. But it doesn't sing like the B&S, especially up high.

Rick "who has heard with deep envy and respect Tom play his 621" Denney

[Getzeng50s]

Why are there no comments on the playability of the 822? This is the only F tuba i ever had, and i like it a lot. only im having issues getting it to sound "focused" its almost always 'broad' what do other 822 owners think?
mike

[MaryAnn]

The low C on the old B&S seems to me better than on the newer B&S F tubas.

I've played Mark Nelson's B&S Symphonie, comparing it side-by-side to my MW 182. The low C on the B&S was definitely easier; the B&S is also a larger bore, requiring more air. What I found most fascinating was that the 182 had a more growly sound, that is, the B&S had a lighter sound. The opposite of what I expected based on the size difference.

MA, who has not had the F out of the case since the last time she played the 3rd horn part from the Reicha trios on it (sounds COOL)

[Tom Holtz]

only im having issues getting it to sound "focused" its almost always 'broad' what do other 822 owners think?

I've only played an 822 once or twice. My limited experience is that it plays as easily as the 621, but it's been set up for as broad and deep a sound as possible. Don't know what to tell you, other than to mess with mouthpieces and such--not my area of expertise.



Rick, you're too kind.

[JB]

...im having issues getting it to sound "focused" its almost always 'broad' what do other 822 owners think?
mike

What mp are you using, and what others have you tried?