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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby butch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:19 pm

jonesmj wrote:Interesting. I was going by Langwill. Vitak listed earlier in Canton as "buffer", "driller", in 1886 as music teacher; 1891-1901 as MI dealer, from 1901 in Chicago as agent (?sole agent) for V F Cerveny....no mention in Langwill re. Cinci....
Mark


Greene writes that his information about Vitak is mostly oral, told him by people that knew his nephew and partner Joseph Elsnic. So your source may be more accurate.
Mr. Georgi, also mentioned on the cartouche, was born in Germany.
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby butch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:21 pm

By the way, Louis Vitak was also a composer and arranger.

http://www.loc.gov/jukebox/artists/detail/id/5511/
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby bigtubby » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:24 pm

Sometimes Ari at Amati Strunal U.S.A. is able to help with these questions. As I understand, the Cerveny (maybe more importantly, Amati) records are not complete but often he will forward requests like this to the folks who build them in CZ.
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby butch » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:31 pm

There is an other cartouche (from an euphonium) that is quite similar as the ones shown above. See the spelling of «Koeniggrats», which is different.

Image
[url]Source: http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Exhibitions/Muz ... rveny.html[/url]

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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby bisontuba » Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:55 pm

Very interesting.....also many examples on ebay of music by Louis Vitak...
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:17 pm

butch wrote:
reastman1952 wrote:Also, I'm now wondering if my badge was a mistake, or engraver's error, as it uses a single "G" in Konigratz, yet most of the others (so far) are Koniggratz (original spelling) or Koeniggratz.


The spelling on your horn has to be a mistake, as the correct german name of that small town in Bohemia is "Königgrätz". Actually it should be "Königingrätz" because the town of "Grätz" became seat of the widow of two kings and the town was renamed to "Königingrätz" (Königin is Queen in german). But in the beginning of the 19th century it was shortened to "Königgrätz". By the time your tuba was built, Königgrätz belonged to the Austro-Hungarian empire.
(Sorry for the long and maybe annoying text, but I'm a historian. :oops: )

Regards Butch

PS: Maybe the misspelling is because your tuba is an early chinese clone of a Cerveny. :D :lol: :twisted:


Butch, I think you're correct that it is a mistake, possibly by the engraver. (Don't apologize, I'm a professional genealogist and try not to ramble in historical facts) I think it begs the question though... were the cartouches made in Königgrätz, or in the city they were exported to? With all the variants of the location, I would guess that they were engraved by Canton and Chicago engravers and added to the bell later, which would account for the varied use of fonts and location spellings, possibly even the metals themselves. Would also account for mistakes! Perhaps a look into the engravers that Vitak used might shed some light. Who knows... Canton is a province in China. :roll: :lol:
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby bisontuba » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:20 pm

Hi-
Well, the mystery thickens. Vince also has an early Cerveny Vitak Eb with a 13" bell--see his website.
And....I looked at my horn's shield again--here's a close up:

Image

Notice the spelling of Koniggraz- NO 'T'...hmmmm...

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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:11 am

Yes Mark, I saw Vince's EEb. The font usage is the same as yours but Koniggratz is spelled correctly. Interesting to note that your cartouche drops the T and Konnigraz is preceded with a capital A. I've seen the letter A in another cartouche on Tinker's Web site. Both are included here.
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:19 am

Adding one from a Cerveny Euphonium credited with being ca. 1905. This time Koeniggrats. (This is the one Butch uploaded)
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby bisontuba » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:53 am

Hi-
If folks own old Cerveny's with the Vitak shield, might I ask you to take a close up of the shield and post it on here? Let's see how many varieties of this shield exist!
Thanks-
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby butch » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:37 pm

Knowing that Vitak's partner Georgi was German, it's weird that he didn't how to spell Königgrätz properly. :evil:
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby bisontuba » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:59 pm

Hi-
Shield from Early Cerveny BBb tuba with roller valves with Vitak shield from Canton, OH--pre Columbus Expo-courtesy Brass Players Museum... (He dates the horn c. 1880, but being Canton, it is earliest c. 1891)...FYI...mark

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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:29 pm

This is great Mark, thanks. I note the font same as yours but only one medallion... the obverse AND reverse of the Paris Exhibitioners Medal. Spelling with 2 "G"s. Wonder how he arrived at 1880?
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:10 pm

From a post 1901 Cerveny Helicon. Hmmmm... 1 "G"... and with an "E".

Will the real Koniggratz/Konigratz/Koeniggrats/Koeniggratz/Hradec Kralove please stand up!
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:13 pm

Hello all...

Well, it is now 4 years later and based on Tubenet's recommendations, I had the old Cerveny Eb restored by Norm Epley at NRE Brassworks in Lexington, Kentucky. Norm has been nothing short of amazing in his restoration work, especially considering that the horn's wreath and bell were severely damaged on the journey to his shop. The Cerveny should arrive in a week and I couldn't be more excited to play this gorgeous horn that belonged to my great grandfather!! (see pics in earlier part of this thread)
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby reastman1952 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:20 pm

This is what the Cerveny looked like and its progression of restoration...
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On arrival at NRE Brassworks
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby imperialbari » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:20 pm

This tuba is out of the Cerveny de Luxe line that was discontinued around 1930. The rotors are turned 90° around the airpath axis, so that the pressure of the finger paddle acts directly on the rotor through a very short link. The rotors were loaded through the top of the rotor casings.

I don’t remember, when this line was introduced. Finding my original source has become harder, as modern Cerveny has introduced a new DeLuxe line. Windshieldbug may be in the know.

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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby EMC » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:03 pm

That's awesome! I wish modern day tubas were more ornate and had badges/sheilds and engravings like that used to.
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby tubapix » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:00 am

Congratulations on the restoration of your grandfather's horn. Norm did a beautiful job and you will have many years of pleasure playing this piece of history.
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Re: Cerveny Tuba question

Postby Casca Grossa » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:53 pm

Wow!!! Looks amazing!!!
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