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What are the various "stencil" names of the pre-Chinese copies of the Alex BBb?

There is always the YBB-641, which is the clone I see most. Are you looking for Alexander made horns that were stenciled and sold under a different trade name, or are you looking for other companies who have copied the design?

I was unaware that Alexander made any stencil horns, so I guess both. I am trying to keep my eye open for any that may show up for sale and I wanted to know what names I should be checking.

Thanks.

Wade Rackley may have some info on stensils made by Alex, or its employees in training, but I can not recall a trade name associated with Alexander stenciling.

Again, Yamaha has its copy, Japanese, and pre-Chinese era copies, but those instruments have never had the prestige or following that the Alexanders have. I know one individual on this board who was modifying/improving a 641 body to re-create a cheap 163. Maybe he will chime in too... J.C.?

I don't think there were Alexander stencils.

Each time there was a "Is this an Alexander stencil" post here, they were always shot down as not being Alexanders for various reasons. I can't recall anyone ever coming forward with an Alexander stencil that was able to essentially prove it.

Would Alexander ever really have had the capacity to do stencil tubas anyway? Seems like a stretch for a small workshop type operation.

Here are a few of the names I've seen tossed around here associated with the GDR tubas - Gerhard Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Weltklang, Musica, Karl Zeiss. My dad has a Schneider. The others I'm not as certain about. I've seen the name 'Sanders' tossed around and shot down as being chinese made instead of german made.

Re: Alexander Mainz making* 'stencils' of their own horn - I can't imagine that's the case. They were one of the West German companies that felt the pinch when the East Germans started making these tubas well. They certainly would not have gained long term by undercutting their own brand through producing a stencil name... Just ask GM how it all worked out when they started undercutting Chevrolet with Saturn.

* Edit - I'm clarifying my statement. This thread was questioning German Made stencils (vs the current crop of Chinese made stencils). Alex wouldn't make the horn in their shop at the same labor cost (or even slightly reduced) then sell it for less simply by cutting a few corners like bell kranz or other trim items and letting other sellers engrave their mark on it.

NCSUSousa wrote: Re: Alexander Mainz selling 'stencils' of their own horn - I can't imagine that's the case.

Hmm- I bought my new Dalyan F (5v) from Alexander, Mainz.
Compare the specification to the Alex 155...

Ulli wrote:

NCSUSousa wrote: Re: Alexander Mainz selling 'stencils' of their own horn - I can't imagine that's the case.

Hmm- I bought my new Dalyan F (5v) from Alexander, Mainz.

I forgot that they also have a store front music shop in my comment above. I completely understand a music shop selling lower tier instruments from other makers (at a reduced price). It's just good business as long as those instruments aren't bad. Most music shops do this.

My point is this: The instrument making side of that business wouldn't build their Model 155 F or Model 164 BBb at their shop in Mainz, stencil it as Dalyan instead of labeling it with their standard Alexander-Mainz logo, and sell it at a reduce price in 14 countries. Even if they cut corners on production, it wouldn't be good business because they haven't saved very much on production that way.

NCSUSousa wrote:Here are a few of the names I've seen tossed around here associated with the GDR tubas - Gerhard Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Weltklang, Musica, Karl Zeiss.

These were made in Markneukirchen, Saxony (in the former East Germany) by B&S, not in Alexander's Mainz shops.

Heavy_Metal wrote:

NCSUSousa wrote:Here are a few of the names I've seen tossed around here associated with the GDR tubas - Gerhard Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Weltklang, Musica, Karl Zeiss.

These were made in Markneukirchen, Saxony (in the former East Germany) by B&S, not in Alexander's Mainz shops.

Yes. That's what the OP asked for. The names of the copies.
I think Ben's post confused this issue because Alexander hasn't produced tubas that sold under a different name. B&S is a totally separate company that started making copies of the Alexander during East German times. Since they were sold under different names, they're called stencils.

A stencil would be an instrument made by Alexander and sold as Brand X. Cerveny and the whole Melton complex, and Jin Bao, are the usual suspects these days. Copying an instrument is not a stencil.

A broader example. .. There is 1 guitar factory in Korea which, at one time at least, made Statistically Stratosphere for Fender, but those same instruments were sold as about 30 different names
The stencil refers to the actual stamping or engraving, where any number of instruments go down the same line but into different bins to get named whatever. VM I and Jin Bao certainly clone anything they get their hands on, but theirs is not a stencil of, say, Alex. They don't pay or get paid by Alex. But, the Mack Brass, Wessex, Schiller, etc are stencils of the clone. The definition is in the money.

eupher61 wrote:A stencil would be an instrument made by Alexander and sold as Brand X. Cerveny and the whole Melton complex, and Jin Bao, are the usual suspects these days. Copying an instrument is not a stencil.

A broader example. .. There is 1 guitar factory in Korea which, at one time at least, made Statistically Stratosphere for Fender, but those same instruments were sold as about 30 different names
The stencil refers to the actual stamping or engraving, where any number of instruments go down the same line but into different bins to get named whatever. VM I and Jin Bao certainly clone anything they get their hands on, but theirs is not a stencil of, say, Alex. They don't pay or get paid by Alex. But, the Mack Brass, Wessex, Schiller, etc are stencils of the clone. The definition is in the money.

In this case, the 'german made stencils' from the original question were made in East Germany by B&S (aka VMI) and sold under different names. The original design was the Alex163, but Alex didn't get a penny because B&S made the copies in a different country. Tubas of this variety are frequently called 'Alex stencils' even though Alexander-Mainz didn't build them. I guess the proper term would be 'B&S stencils'.

Edit - It seems there's some question about the existence of patents on tubas in Germany. I've deleted the reference and will leave this one to the 'experts'.

I've heard it said that even the Miraphone 186/187 horns look a lot like Alexanders. Since Miraphone was founded after World War 2 and Alexander has existed far longer, I wonder if a patent situation was in play here too?

NCSUSousa wrote: Tubas of this variety are frequently called 'Alex stencils' even though Alexander-Mainz didn't build them. I guess the proper term would be 'B&S stencils'.

don't think so. That would be B&S made copys of an Alexander.

Dalyan F may be a copy of Miraphone F80B
Stowasser may be a stencil of Cerveny
Jin Bao F Tuba 600 may be a copy of (don't know...)
Wessex Brahms may be a stencil of Jin Bao F 600

May be, Alex never produces stencils?

NCSUSousa wrote:The original design was the Alex163, but Alex didn't get a penny because B&S made the copies in a different country, violating German and International patent agreements.

Which part(s), if any, of Alex instruments would have been under patent during the period under discussion?

All rotary tuba designs can be traced back to Cerveny.

In that case, Jin Bao is culpable for violations from the US, Germany, Japan, Czech Republic, UK. ...
Even in the US, a patented design can be used without infringement if an "improvement" can be shown. And that improved item can be patented.

By this time, there aren't many tubas which can be under full design patent. A specific component, like a Thayer valve or Greenhoe, would be patentable. But there are no tubas I've seen, or trumpets or Trombones or kazoos, that bear the required patent notice, made in the last 70 years or so. Now, someone will find one and show me up, certainly.
I'm not a lawyer, but I've done a lot of research. Maybe our patent lawyer in residence can add a bit of non-legal-advice to clarify.

So...

B&S/VMI
Gerhard Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Weltklang, Musica, Karl Zeiss

Jinbao
Mack Brass, Wessex, etc.

mshores wrote:So...

B&S/VMI
Gerhard Schneider, Carl Wunderlich, Sonora, Weltklang, Musica, Karl Zeiss

Jinbao
Mack Brass, Wessex, etc.

Pretty much. You can add "Crown" to the B&S/VMI list of stencils. I'm sure there are others. Keep in mind those Alex BBb "copies" are not true copies. The real Alex 163 BBb tuba has a bigger bore and overall bigger tuba body than the copies -- it is a large 4/4+ tuba, whereas the copies are a "regular" 4/4 size. The intonation is better on the copies, but the sound bigger/richer on the real Alex BBb --(sound is still quite nice on the copies).

"Musica" and "Karl Zeiss" tubas were also made by Cerveny or made with Cerveny parts at the Musica shop in Austria

Somewhere around here there is already a list of B&S stencil names.