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What would be closest? It appears that the largest tubas are now CCs, and the recording bell has disappeared completely.

I would classify the Gronitz PBK as in the running as a BBb BAT as any current CC that I am aware of. The Rudolf Meinl Kaiser BBb is even larger yet.


Matt Kaufmans Big Rudy BBb


Gronitz PBK BBb

The Meinl-Weston Fafner 195 is approaching BAT status, although I don't think it's as big as the Rudy 6/4. The Cerveny 601 (they come in both BBb and CC) is another very large BBb tuba.

I'm not sure why nobody makes recording bell tubas any more, but they don't. I think it probably has to do with the style adopted by most orchestral players setting the standard, and the fact that they aren't necessary with modern recording equipment. The type of ensemble in which these were primarily used isn't as common either. The bottom line is that there isn't enough of a market for them for anyone to make them as a standard item.

The best playing big BBb to me is the Willson. It is the BBb version of the 3050 CC. Easy to play and in tune with a great sound.

Also I was very impressed when I played the Rudy Meinl big BBb, like the one pictured in the earlier post. They make two models of that horn: the 6/4 pictured and one that is 5/4. I played the 5/4 and it was amazingly easy to play.

good luck

Yes, the Willson tubas may be good, or even great, horns, but they're not BAT's IMHO. I would call them somewhere between 4/4 and 5/4 in size. The Conn 21J that I used to own, with the 24" upright bell, made my 2-piece King 2341 look like a mini tuba. It has it's playing issues, mainly intonation, but it had a big sound, and was a huge horn. There aren't too many BBb tubas that size made any more. I think that the demise of 24" or larger bells is not necessarily a bad thing, but I can't think of a horn made today, other than a sousaphone, with anything larger than 20". It certainly must have been impressive to show up with a 32" recording bell.

Wow! I had no idea such behemoths were still being created. I certainly am intrigued. Other than going to Germany personally, is there any way of getting one of these in the US?

this does not really answer your question, but, why not get an old 6/4 and update it to your standards. you could buy the holton 3 valver on ebay and have a new 4 valve set put on...i did something similar and am quite happy.

Metaphorically, I would be interested in a new big truck. I don't want to restore a big truck.

MikeMason wrote:this does not really answer your question, but, why not get an old 6/4 and update it to your standards. you could buy the holton 3 valver on ebay and have a new 4 valve set put on...i did something similar and am quite happy.

Is that what I saw you playing on last night in Porgy and Bess, Mike?

Lew wrote:Yes, the Willson tubas may be good, or even great, horns, but they're not BAT's IMHO. I would call them somewhere between 4/4 and 5/4 in size. The Conn 21J that I used to own, with the 24" upright bell, made my 2-piece King 2341 look like a mini tuba.

I don't think the monster bell of a recording bass has much to do with BAT status. My Holton is a BAT by any definition, and it has a 20" bell.

What makes a BAT is a huge bell throat and bottom bow. It's the volume of air inside the horn that counts.

The Willson 3100 is a big instrument, and probably deserving of the BAT label. I don't much like it because it provides little feedback, but it's still enormous. The PBK would be about the same size. Both are a hair smaller in one or two dimensions than a Holton. Of course, nobody on these shores has seen let alone played a PBK, but the PCK is about the size of the 3050.

The Rudy 5/4 is as big as virtually any BAT, and it's much bigger than, say, a Cerveny 601. The 6/4 is an uberBAT.

If I was shopping for a really big BBb tuba that could be bought new, the Meinl-Weston Fafner would be very high on my list--higher than the Willson. I found it much easier for me to know what was coming out of the bell with the Fafner.

The Fafner (and the Rudy) are not the same sort of beast as a classic BAT of old like a Martin, Conn, Holton or York. But I think it would serve the same purpose.

So, the short list for a very large BBb tuba with the requirement that it is available new would include:

Meinl-Weston Model 195 "Fafner"
Gronitz PBK
Willson 3100
Rudolf Meinl 5/4
(to a lesser extent) Cerveny 601

Of these, the PBK is the closest to a BBb Yorkophone.

Rick "who thinks Yorkophones are a subset of BAT's" Denney

Anyone here ever play the MW Fafner? That seems to be the only one that is available without too much trouble. There are a couple of reviews on wwbw and one guy seems very unhappy with the sound.

And regarding the Avatars, I disagree, they are both cool.

manatee wrote: Anyone here ever play the MW Fafner? That seems to be the only one that is available without too much trouble. There are a couple of reviews on wwbw and one guy seems very unhappy with the sound.

I have tried one briefly a few times. That's not really enough to evaluate, and of course your experience will be different based on your playing style. That said, I liked the way that it played. I prefered it to the M-W model 25s that I have played. The person next to me in one of the bands in which I play has one, and it sounds fine to me. I think that it is probably one of the better BBb tubas available today.

Doc wrote:I like the Mirafone 191 much better. It's extremely easy to play in all registers, and makes a huge sound.

I wish one of those easy-to-play 191's or 1291's would come my way for a try. I haven't found them to be provide as big a response for a given input as your statement suggests.

The Fafner I tried was much more impressive. But, like all big tubas, you have to try it out in a big room and listen to what comes back to you from the room, not what you hear from the bell. This is especially true with the Willson 3100--I think the Fafner is easier to hear than the Willson, but it's not a compact wrap that puts the bell close to your ear the way the 191 does.

The Fafner didn't seem to me to have the same depth of sound as the Holton, but it had a focus and power that was easier to exploit than with the Holton. When I want that sound on the Holton, I use a mouthpiece with more of cup shape--the Fafner produces it with any mouthpiece. I haven't played one enough to know if the sound has that same friendly sweetness that I like in the big American BATs.

Keating Johnson sold his very special Holton BBb tuba a couple of years ago after replacing it with a Fafner. Here's what he said on Tubenet just after he bought his Fafner:

I bought a Fafner just one month ago, have used it even with faculty brass at Washington State University. Many of you know my Holton, which I bought from Arnold while studying as a masters student, in 1974.

The response, rich low register, orchestral sound and solo possible sounds have all astounded me. My wife, brass faculty and many music school faculty. This is an amazing tuba. Having played large BBb tuba since working with Don Heeren in high school and even subbing for Floyd and others over the years, and my knowledge of the German orchestras---I still have been overwhelmed by the things that the Fafner can do. Stay tuned as I can slowly collect my thoughts, even one month in I am more and more sure of how well this tuba plays.

He bought that Holton from Arnold Jacobs and played it for 28 years. The Fafner would have had to do something special for him to finally sell that Holton.

Rick "for whom the Fafner would share the short list with the Gronitz PBK and the 5/4 Rudy for a big tuba if the Holton disappeared" Denney

Sheesh, who wants to lug around a 6/4 hunk of sheet brass anyway? What I'd like is a tuba the size of, say, an oboe, and the sound of the big Rudi....

Maybe someone could devise one that worked the same way as one of those collapsable drinking cups.

Now THAT would be special!

I played one of the new Besson BBbs and it was a monster of an instrument. I could barely hold it and it had that BAT sound in my opinion.

Josh