Newbe who needs advice...please

[sactosurfer]

My daughter plays double bass in her middle school music program. She is a serious music student and with the teachers approval, has decided to double on tuba to broaden her potential. We rented an Eastman 3/4 3 valve because it was what was available. I can't say I like it much. She got better sound when demoing an antique De Prins 4 valve, and a Yamaha 4/4 3 vale. The store is very helpful and knowledgeable, but I fear limited to what is available in our price range of no more than $3500. We are waiting for the arrival of the Pro level Eastman 4/4 4 valve so that we can rent or buy that one instead. My questions are:
1) is this a good one at the used price of $3500?
2) is an alternative brand in 3 valve configuration a waste of money, or smart starter instrument?
3) Any reviews/comments on the high end Eastmans?---can I expect more from the higher end?

I was told the antique De Prins would not work at the college level due to not meeting the modern expectations. I have also been counselled that 3 valves are not going to work in the long run either. As a musician myself, I understand that junky instruments are frustrating and discouraging. However, a year ago, we spent 4k on her spruce top bass and have not replenished the instrument money for another large purchase. I don't know the best way to approach this....What would the collective wisdom recommend?

[Heavy_Metal]

Agreed. Also, as with all things used, you need to know what to look for, and it would help if your daughter could try out a potential purchase. There are quite a few very good instrument dealers on this board who could be very helpful in your situation- their information is on the TubeNet Sponsors page, or at the Sponsors button at the top of any page of this board- and Bloke is one of them. His link is here, in the For Sale section:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=60906" target="_blank

If you tell us where you are located, we might know someone near you.

Good luck with your budding tubist!

[theatomizer13]

You could probably find a st Petersburg for a good price used. New at tubaexchange they are about ($3,800). The big thing about buying a used tuba is to be patient and test out as many as possible. If you are patient you can find a real deal on these boards but it doesn't mean anything if its the kind of tuba she likes.

Ex. Rotary vs piston
3 valve vs 4 valve
What brand she likes
What kind of case she wants (alteri can be frustrating)
Size (too big for her)
Ect.
Depending on where you live, it can be really easy or difficult to test these out. If there is a local college, you might persue that. I find that tuba teachers are always willing to help pick an instrument, or at least let you get a feel of the ones they have in storage.

[sactosurfer]

Ok, here is a question Im sure everyone is sick of answering...bear with me: piston vs rotary? Do rotary take wear better (last longer), sound different, or other?
Acronyms and model numbers: I'm figuring them out slowly, so it helps to say the brand with copy references.
To answer: I am in Sacramento California
I'm very impressed with the Youtube demo of the Mack Brass 210!---Thanks for the link. If that is a good example of the horn, I like it! Sounds Pro to me.
I know nobody has a crystal ball, but on the subject of Mack Brass parts: they sound like a newer company, if they sell the company or retire, are other brands wear and tear change out parts adaptable?--ten years from now?

[Michael Bush]

I know nobody has a crystal ball, but on the subject of Mack Brass parts: they sound like a newer company, if they sell the company or retire, are other brands wear and tear change out parts adaptable?--ten years from now?

All the companies that sell these tubas are more-or-less new. However, I have received a part from Wessex. And Tom (Mackbrass) has shipped me parts in the past, and a box of parts, including a pitch-filled leadpipe, is in the FedEx system now. Allegedly M&M stocks parts as well, and I have no reason to doubt it, though I haven't dealt with them.

Lots of questions have been raised about getting parts for these instruments, but I think that must go back to the very beginning. I have been able to get whatever I have wanted with little or no delay. Meanwhile, when I first started back playing, a repair guy waited three months to get a simple screw in from Miraphone. We ended up using one out of an Apple computer.

I don't reckon there is any more reason to expect to be unable to get parts for these in a few years than there is for any other tuba. Meanwhile, I would be surprised if your daughter is still using her first tuba in ten years anyway, though I guess that could happen.

[Donn]

I don't reckon there is any more reason to expect to be unable to get parts for these in a few years than there is for any other tuba.

That might be stretching it a little. Am I right, they are basically one man shops, sourcing tubas built to spec in various Chinese factories? Even if a Yamaha tuba for example comes from the same factory (I don't know), there's a lot more behind that. We've seen what happens when one of these small importers gets buried in financial problems.

[Michael Bush]

I don't reckon there is any more reason to expect to be unable to get parts for these in a few years than there is for any other tuba.

That might be stretching it a little. Am I right, they are basically one man shops, sourcing tubas built to spec in various Chinese factories? Even if a Yamaha tuba for example comes from the same factory (I don't know), there's a lot more behind that. We've seen what happens when one of these small importers gets buried in financial problems.

If all those guys magically disappeared from the planet tonight, somebody would step in. And like I said, we've also seen what happens when you order a small part from Germany. I don't see this issue as the basis for making a choice. It doesn't differentiate enough.

[ralphbsz]

Hello tuba father from Sacramento!

Our son (now HS freshman) did the same path, except he came from clarinet via bass clarinet and trombone to tuba. Initially, he played on the middle-school owned Jupiter 3/4 size 3-valve. Then we rented a really crappy old Conn 3/4 tuba for a summer. When he started having lessons with a real tuba teacher, it very quickly became clear that a 3/4-size 3-valve student instrument (in particular one that's badly made or beat up) is not a good place to learn on. Or to quote his teacher: "A professional would have a hard time making beautiful music on that piece of crap. How can you expect a student to learn on it?" We were lucky to find a Meinl-Weston 25 for our son (4-valve BBb, slightly bigger than the Miraphone 186, which is the gold standard of 4-valve instruments), which he played the heck out of for several years. Recently, he was upgraded to a 5-valve CC horn. Unfortunately, our MW 25 won't be for sale anytime soon, as it is being used as a loaner instrument for others right now.

I think 4 valves is a de-facto requirement, even for the middle school repertoire. The intonation of the low notes is just too awful with the 1+3 combination. Maybe a experienced player could overcome that (with slide pulling), but a 13-year old should not be expected to have to deal with those complications. Plus, in high school she'll be playing a 4-valve horn anyhow (except for those sousaphones in marching band, but there the sound is secondary, and looking good is where it's at).

What would the collective wisdom recommend?

Second mortgage? Just kidding!

Here's my advice: Go for a solid, name-brand instrument. Don't worry about it being old and beat up. A few years of school, and it will be a lot more old and beat up, as long as it plays well. And with tubas being dent-magnets, you will be taking it to the repair shop more frequently than you want to, so why invest in something shiny at the beginning.

Fortunately, you have a good shop in Sacramento: Tim's Band Instruments (the technician there is called Scott). Professionals from the bay area take their instruments on a 3-hour drive to Sacto when our own local repair guru is backlogged. I would start by going over there and getting advice, and see what they have in used gear. And then I would look both in the for-sale section here, and on Craigslist. Also look at the website of The Horn Guys. They're the best (and largest) tuba store on the west coast, located in LA. They might have an instrument for you, and with a weekend trip down there you can save a bit of shipping cost, and maybe combine it with a visit to Disney.

For example, look around for a Miraphone 186 (or it's slightly smaller cousin, the 184), or the Meinl-Weston equivalent, or the King 2341 or its Conn equivalent, or (if you are into top-valves) the Yamaha 321 (or its Holton clone). With a little patience, you'll find a used instrument in the right price range. Chinese clones (often sold under western-sounding names) are a two-edged sword. When we were looking for our most recent tuba, we tested a Chinese clone that was completely awful, stuffy (in spite of having large pipes!) and with horrible intonation. But we've also recently seen some very good Chinese (and Russian) instruments that played fine. Our neighboring middle school had a St. Petersburg 4/4 BBb 4-valve that played very nicely, and looked sturdy. Repair parts for Chinese instruments: One does worry about that, although a good technician can improvise amazing things. But consider that for many established brands, getting parts isn't always trivial or fast either (in particular the ones that have to come across the ocean).

In all that, don't forget the cost of shipping. I've bought an instrument from Bloke (and highly recommend him!) for our middle school, but don't forget that he's in the southeast and you are in the west, and the Greyhound bus will take a long time and a bit of money to get a tuba to you. If you can find one locally, so much the better.

Ok, here is a question Im sure everyone is sick of answering...bear with me: piston vs rotary? Do rotary take wear better (last longer), sound different, or other?

Welcome to the #1 religious debate. They have pluses and minuses. Pistons are easier to clean and do simple maintenance on. They are harder to repair if something gets bent, but they are sturdier and don't get damaged so much. Rotaries can be a little finicky, but a musically and mechanically talented parent can do a lot of adjustment and repair themselves. I think rotaries are easier to learn on (because they sound more "accurate", and you don't get funny noises from half-pressed valves), and can be harder to master for advanced students (because they can be a bit slower, and interrupt the airflow more when playing legato). Our son's teacher generally recommends rotaries for his students, if there is a choice, and mostly plays rotary instruments himself. Another fine tuba professional in the area swears by pistons. Our son has played them both, and when we bought his new tuba, he insisted on a rotary horn, since he wants the accuracy of the rotors, even though he knows that he can fake super-fast passages on the pistons better (but neither his teacher nor his band director would let him get away with faking).

As a total beginner, your daughter's opinion in this matter will (unfortunately!) not matter much. Here's my advice: She will, sooner rather than later, need a private teacher anyhow, if she's serious about playing. Go ask that teacher for their advice, not just on rotary-versus-piston, but on generally which tuba to pick. And ask that teacher to try out candidate horns, in particular used and beat up ones.

There is also one other issue: physical size. If your daughter is tiny, then tuba might just not be the right choice for her. In my son's high school, there is a petite freshman lady (70 lbs!) who has decided that she really wants to play tuba, and she has a hard time. We even lent her a playing stand (so she doesn't have to balance the horn on her lap), but it seems to just not be working out. I think the problem is partly embouchure and lung volume, and partly that just balancing the horn requires 110% of her strength and attention, not leaving much for playing. Fortunately, she is a very fine woodwind player, and going back to that will not be seen as a defeat. On the other hand, once holding and balancing the instrument is taken care of, one doesn't do a student a favor by putting them on a hard-to-play tiny horn. In middle and high school, I've seen several smallish students handle tubas just fine, and sound great.

One last issue, unfortunately an important one: If you buy a horn, and it is at home for practice, what will your daughter play at school? Life during the daily band class will be miserable on a crappy student 3-valve horn, if she has a nice 4-valve horn at home. You may end up being like me, with a giant hard-case for a horn in the back of the car every morning.

Good luck! If you're ever in the San Jose / Los Gatos area, come on by. Or arrange for your daughter to have a lesson with our son's teacher (he's not only a great tuba player, but also a fabulous teacher).

[swillafew]

1. double bass is an excellent starting point for the music career.
2. the middle school student has a long time to look, plan, and wait for a good deal. By all means shop the used ones listed by the sponsors here, there are often attractive deals.

[TubaZac2012]

Whatever you do, don't buy the Eastman.. I've played on both of the horns, and they'd be used better for flower pots.. Wait for a good name brand horn. A horn that's proven, not the Eastman. Go for Joe's horns, they're great instruments.

Good luck!

[J.Harris]

I have to comment on the whole piston vs. rotors thing. I actually have to dispute a couple of things a previous poster claimed.
1. Rotors are not slower. Poorly maintained rotors may be slower but that can be said of either valve type if not maintained properly.
2. Neither rotors or pistons are "more accurate" if properly aligned. They're just different and have a different feel when played.
3. Yes pistons are easier to maintain BUT they require much more frequent maintenance. Some require nearly daily lubrication. With pistons, the bearing surfaces(those that slide together) are exposed to the airstream and any debris (think food particles etc…) that may be in the airstream thus needing more frequent cleaning and lubrication. Rotors on the other hand have two small bearing surfaces (top and bottom of the rotor) which are never exposed to the air moving through the instrument. Other than a few drops of oil once in a while on the rotor bearings and linkages (maybe once every week or two), rotors require very little maintenance. Oiling the rotors with a needle oiler requires the removal of the rear valve cap and little else. You can oil the top of the rotor without removing the control linkage as well. The rotors can be disassembled completely for cleaning but this would be much more infrequent(maybe once a year) and although its not difficult I'd have a repair tech do it for you, at least the first time and I'm sure they'd be happy to show you how to do it as well.

Another advantage of rotors is simply ergonomics. A rotary valve has a significantly shorter throw than pistons and are generally easier for people (kids and adults) with small hands.

I've owned both piston and rotary horns and like them all. I just hate seeing people badmouth rotors when there are clearly pros and cons to both valve types.

Good luck in your search and I hope your daughter has a great time with the tuba.

[ralphbsz]

Didn't I say that piston-vs-rotor is an endless debate? Not only do they haves pros and cons, but even the question of what is a pro and what is a con is up to debate. By the way, our son (a beginner with 3 years of tuba under his belt) is solidly in the rotor camp.

An experienced tuba player should probably have his/her own opinion. A beginner should probably follow the advice of their teacher.

[swillafew]

Valve type: get the one you feel comfortable playing.

[J.Harris]

I wasn't proposing a piston vs. rotary debate which is a fruitless discussion in my opinion but just wanted to get the facts straight. As I stated, both valve types are completely fine and no disrespect was intended towards anyone.

[J.Harris]

I wasn't proposing a piston vs. rotary debate which is a fruitless discussion in my opinion but just wanted to get the facts straight. As I stated, both valve types are completely fine and no disrespect was intended towards anyone.