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The general print standard in the environments of internet publishing, where I have taken part, is the US Letter format. Which is fine for parts, but which has shortcomings, when it comes to scores.

Had the general format been A4, the scores still could have been issued in A4 and then have been printed at 141% on A3 paper for better readability.

But as things aren't that way, an alternative approach could be about issuing the scores in the US Legal format.

I am sure that ensembles associated with larger schools would have access to printers that could print that larger format, but what about community ensembles especially in smaller towns?

Are print shops common enough for them to have easy access to such large printers?

Klaus

US Legal paper 8 1/2 X 14 is an obsolete size. Only because certain forms have "always been printed that way" does the size paper still exist. For example, one of the court rules in my state says that court papers shall be on 8 1/2 X 11, which has now been the rule for over 30 years, with exception for when old documents need to be included as part of the case.

I absolutely agree that the USA should adopt the European paper sizes. It would make life so much easier from all perspectives: correspondence, business, economy of paper production, and international relations.

I am fortunate to be able to comment on this, since in times past my Dad was a lawyer, my Mom owned a Print shop, and I have been able to spend a considerable time in Europe.

Agreed about US Legal size - it's obsolete. Even in state government here it's falling out of use.

Sidebar - In our engineering practice, we use ANSI D (22x34) for full size prints and ANSI B (11x17) for 1/2 scale review drawings when given the choice by our clients. (We actually make pdfs for printing, but that's another conversation.) We occasionally go up to 36x48 (ARCH E) when the client, usually an architect, requests it.

For musical scores, printing to 11x17 should do the job nicely. It's comparable in size to ISO A3 (11.7x16.5).
For people who don't have this kind of printer at their office, the nearest Kinkos or office supply store can print for low cost rather than needing a specialty printer. 11x17 paper is an in-stock item at all of our local office supply stores.

For reference on the sizes mentioned above, ISO A4 is 8.3 x 11.7.

I used to have a HP printer that handled ledger paper (11 x 17 ) very nicely and I could print both useable scores as well as print parts' pages, side by side. I was also, in my youth, a printer's devil and a press operator and I now find I can do much more and much more quickly with a computer and a good quality (think about paying @ $300) printer. Paper size had never been a barrier to what I wanted to do.

Hi Klaus,

Can you do everything on A4 and then let the person who purchases or downloads figure out what to do? I think the biggest problem is how to get the files to a printer to print out in large format. Schools probably won't have an issue, but many schools only have photo copiers rather than large format printers so the computer must have the ability to print directly. Many places do not, but rather copy a score after purchased.

We now print in 6 places in the US and 5 places outside of the US and only provide 8.5x11 PDF unless it is for an oversized score. We have never had an issue.

As for converting to A4 or A3, I vote a million % no. It so easy to change the % of files that there is no need to make any changes. It would be much more a headache than it would ever be worth. Then again, I might get out voted

As I mentioned, the A4 to A3 coversion could happen very easily at the printing stage by the change of percentage. It also can happen from an A4 print by means of a photo copyer.

None of these options are available with the US formats, as they also change proportions when changing size.

The Real Life Reality is that ya gotta print lettersize, 'cause that's only how big most filing cabinets are.

Yes, let music be written for the filing cabinets!

imperialbari wrote:As I mentioned, the A4 to A3 coversion could happen very easily at the printing stage by the change of percentage. It also can happen from an A4 print by means of a photo copyer.

None of these options are available with the US formats, as they also change proportions when changing size.

Although I'm sure they exist, I haven't run across a printer driver in the last 10-15 years that doesn't contain a "fit to page" option that for most purposes produces perfectly acceptable results scaling between various paper size standards (US <-> A-series <-> B-series <-> C-series, with or without the various country-specific extensions <-> ANSI <-> Architectural) and/or sizes within any given standard (US Letter <-> Ledger <-> Tabloid <-> Super B, Arch A <-> Arch B <-> Arch C <-> Arch D, etc).

pgym wrote:

imperialbari wrote:As I mentioned, the A4 to A3 coversion could happen very easily at the printing stage by the change of percentage. It also can happen from an A4 print by means of a photo copyer.

None of these options are available with the US formats, as they also change proportions when changing size.

Although I'm sure they exist, I haven't run across a printer driver in the last 10-15 years that doesn't contain a "fit to page" option that for most purposes produces perfectly acceptable results scaling between various paper size standards (US <-> A-series <-> B-series <-> C-series, with or without the various country-specific extensions <-> ANSI <-> Architectural) and/or sizes within any given standard (US Letter <-> Ledger <-> Tabloid <-> Super B, Arch A <-> Arch B <-> Arch C <-> Arch D, etc).

The WxH proportion of A3/A4 paper is between the proportions of letter and ledger so it ends up with minimal white space margins when scaled to either US size. Using US Letter as the starting point ends up with more whitespace when scaled to 11x17 compared with scaling A4 or A3 to 11x17. Similar added whitespace happens when printing an 11x17 pdf on letter paper. It would make sense to just publish music pdfs at A4 or A3 size (A4 for parts, A3 for scores) and let the users select their choice of paper. Printed these pdfs 'scale to fit' on either size of US paper shouldn't be an issue for most computer users.

Also, printed music is not like engineering drawings where the exact distance will be measured with a scale that has to match the print scale. Besides, many people print with 'scale to fit' and 'printer select paper' turned on in their printer dialog with letter size prints. They end up undersized anyway because the printer adds 1/4" margins on all 4 sides...

I am fully aware of the fit to page facility, but also that it basically is a matter of wasting paper.

A4 is taller and slimmer than Letter, so an A4 formatted .pdf file printed on Letter paper will be compressed heightwise and have far too wide side margins. A Letter formatted .pdf file printed on A4 paper will be compressed horizontally with too wide top and bottom margins.

Both A4 and Letter are too small formats for parts already compared to the older standards for orchestral parts. And it is often a fight to get enough music down on each page to avoid too many problems with page turns. Preplanned shrinking for the sake of fitting to a different page format isn't desirable.

Not that I haven't done compromises myself. When I printed to my own ensembles, I formatted to A4. When I started writing to requests from the US, I started formatting to Letter format. When I started contributing to the Icking archives their standard was Letter, even if that operation started in Germany and then for a number of years was managed from Denmark, before it joined the Canada-based IMSLP.

I have tried reformatting some of my older arrangements from A4 to Letter, and that is very time consuming. I am not enough of a masochist to do dual formatting, so unless I work on something specifically directed toward European usage, I now format everything to the Letter standard.

If A4 is the best compromise even in US contexts, I will consider issuing new projects in the A4 format.

If printers ad 1/4" margins to all .pdf printing anyway, I even may consider narrowing my standard margins of 1/2" to 1/4".

imperialbari wrote:If printers ad 1/4" margins to all .pdf printing anyway, I even may consider narrowing my standard margins of 1/2" to 1/4".

The 1/4" margin gets added if the user doesn't print at 100% scale or 'Actual Size' from their pdf reader. If the scale % is known, I try to print without that added margin when I'm printing drawings received from other engineers/architects that aren't formatted as US Letter.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think that margin distance is set by the printer driver.

imperialbari wrote:Yes, let music be written for the filing cabinets!

If you are a publisher or hope to be and not considering issues like this, you simply have a bad business model. These practical issues will hurt sales if not considered. Long ago when I was getting into the business, I sent out lots of emails and polls about what customers wanted and expected from their sheet music. One of the biggest pet peeves was the inability to store music because it was too big. Stores and libraries also had the same complaints. The music still needs to be 100% readable and that should be the number one goal, but consider everything before you make a finished product.

Plus if I used larger formats that would eliminate virtually all digital download sales. This alone would have put me behind a decade or more. Just ask the publishers with large format parts or scores who have to go backwards. And not all of my score and parts are 8.5x11, but the vast majority of the 5000 or so that I produce fit that mold.

Just some things to consider when making decisions.