First Tuba for a younger (ie. smaller) student?

[Levaix]

Out of curiosity, what horns have you guys found to work well for a student who has yet to "grow in" to a full sized tuba? I have one such private student who might want to switch from euphonium this year, and I'm wondering if it makes any sense to buy something at this point. Best case scenario would be something that he could use further down the road, but I don't know if that's a pipe dream. I haven't had much experience with compact tubas (and what little I have had hasn't been very pleasant).

[emcallaway]

Around how tall is your student? That'll help us gauge which horns will fit the kid and which won't.

There are plenty of us "full size" players that play on 3/4 sized horns. I find that such horns tend to be very economical in terms of air needed, and will generally be a bit more straightforward to play than their larger cousins.

Though advertised as a small 4/4 horn, I'd make a plug for a Conn 4J or 5J. These horns are very compact (so much so that it's sometimes confused for a euphonium when it's in its gig bag by non-tuba player types.) I don't have experience with the Olds equivalent, but I'm certain that much of the same holds true.
I do around 90-95% of my playing on a 3J, the CC version of the 5J, and I've found that it's an appropriate horn for just about anything whether it be solos, quintet, orchestra, or band. Basically, if I'm going to a gig and I don't know what to expect, I'll just toss the 3J in the trunk and things have worked out just fine so far. What's more, these horns can generally be found used for just over a grand, so it's not as though the kid's parents will have to mortgage their home just to buy a tuba.

[bigtubby]

I've owned a couple of Amati ABB-223 tubas. They are tiny, quite inexpensive and play surprisingly well. New around $1,700.00, used well under a grand.
http://www.amatiinstruments.com/tuba/abb_223g.php

[Steve Marcus]

Marco & Fafner.jpg

[Heavy_Metal]

A small Besson might be another good choice, but you'd have to look for one that was made in England. Some time ago I bought a used 1991-vintage 787 BBb as sort of a standing-up/TubaChristmas/hazardous-duty horn (price was right), but after I had the dents removed and the valves aligned I found it to have very good relative intonation and efficiency- that's to say, it plays well in tune with itself and produces more volume than one might expect for its size. It did tend to play uniformly sharp but I got a couple sousaphone bits to fix that. So I now use it for quintet, where my Sonora would overpower my colleagues. The later 1087 appears to be similar but with a bigger bell- note that I've never played one of these. I understand Besson horns are no longer made in the UK, so be very careful when considering a newer model.

Then there's the Olds O-99, which many of us started on. It is very similar to the Conn 4J, and the Reynolds company built yet another similar horn whose model number I have forgotten. Recently I had a chance to play an old O-99 and it was a lot better than I remembered from my grade-school days. It's built like a tank to boot.

The King 1135 or 1140 has a good reputation as well, as does the Yamaha YBB-102 and other YBB-100-series horns, but again I've never played one.

[ken k]

yamaha 105 or the comparable Jupiter will work fine until high school then they can get a four valver. Weril makes a similar horn also.

[ken k]

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57376&p=509775&hilit=black#p509775" target="_blank

[Levaix]

Thanks for the replies so far!

I don't know exactly how tall he is now (I only give him lessons in the summer and we're starting this week), but he's about to start 6th grade. So I really did mean he'll have to grow into a full size, lol. A Fafner probably isn't the answer... A smallish 4/4 with a stand might work well, though.

emcallaway, I'll definitely check out the 4J and 5J, thanks!

It's kind of interesting that so many of these smaller tubas are top valve configuration. Kind of parallels how so many young students start on front valve euphoniums ("baritones") even though the majority of professional horns are 3+1. Having gone through the latter myself, I kind of want to get him on a front valve horn so he doesn't have to deal with the switch later.

Does anyone have input on any of the Wessex lineup? They have a couple compact and semi-compact models.

[Mark]

I kind of want to get him on a front valve horn so he doesn't have to deal with the switch later.

I think the same applies to the fourth valve. It's better to learn 4th valves fingerings from the start.

[eupher61]

Switching top to front valves is a non-issue. Most kids in a school change fairly regularly. As long as either is a good fit, AND the importance of a good playing position is reinforced regularly, it's no problem.

YBB 103 or MW 11, the older non-convertible model. Also the Weril J680, which is a not-quite-as-good model resembling the 103 but with 4 valves.

[WC8KCY]

I cast another vote for the Yamaha 103 and its Holton twin--remarkable in that there's no glaring playability faults. Not just a learner's instrument to be upgraded ASAP, a tubist could put one of these to good use throughout a playing career.

[The Big Ben]

Have you considered the classic small beginner's instrument, the li'l Eeefer? It's easy to switch one of the hoards of trumpet players over to the tuba via the Eeefer.

[bort]

All I can say is that for the love of God, make sure it is in good playing condition -- no air leaks, no misaligned valves, etc. Frankly, intonation on a beginner's tuba is probably secondary to learning how to breathe and blow it. I cringe when I remember the old piece of junk I first learned on. If you are fighting the tuba, that is taking effort away from playing it.

[Levaix]

I thought about Eb for a minute, but 1.) it won't sit well with middle school band music, 2.) I don't need the band director getting bamboozled and further confusing things, and 3.) the student is switching from bass clef euphonium, so the fingering thing is a non-issue.

With all due respect, I personally had issues when I had to switch to the "standard" valve position for my instrument, and I'd rather not even have a chance of putting one of my students through the same frustration. 4th valve I don't see as quite so crucial, but honestly? If his parents buy something, it's kind of pointless to cut corners. It will be a different situation if they decide to rent.

bort, rest assured I will play test whatever it is extensively.

[MaryAnn]

Consider hand size and arm length as well as height. No way can I play a front piston valve horn; it twists my arm off and my fingers/hands are not long/big enough. But a rotary works perfectly well for me. As always.....have the kid try before buy, especially for ergonomics.

[michael_glenn]

You may want to look at my melton/Meinl Weston BBb. It's pretty small. However, it can really pump some volume. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=61646" target="_blank

[ken k]

I am just curious levaix what kind of problems you had switching from a front valve horn to an upright horn. I have never heard of anyone having such an issue. I teach many students who have one kind of horn at home and play the other at school. I never considered it an issue. The first time they try to play the other type of horn of course they are a little confused, but once they learn how to hold it differently, the valves are the same.

ken k

[Levaix]

I am just curious levaix what kind of problems you had switching from a front valve horn to an upright horn. I have never heard of anyone having such an issue. I teach many students who have one kind of horn at home and play the other at school. I never considered it an issue. The first time they try to play the other type of horn of course they are a little confused, but once they learn how to hold it differently, the valves are the same.

ken k

I don't mind sharing at all! My apologies for not posting sooner.

I started on an Olds Ambassador (3V front) and played that about a year. Then a similar Bach model for the next 4-5 years. Then a 3+1 Yamaha for a a month or two at most, followed by a 4V front Willson 2975, which lasted me the next 3 years until college, when I got my B&S. Basically, I played a valve front horn for almost 9 years, then got thrown into a different valve setup at the exact same time as college. My ability seemed to take a huge hit, and while I don't want to make it sound like my equipment was the issue, in auditions I placed dead last in the entire studio my first semester. It was almost entirely a mental thing and I doubt it would have made any difference at all had it not been my main instrument, but it really was legitimately frustrating. I know my case is probably a bit unusual, but either way, it makes sense to me to have a student get used to whatever they're most likely to stick with. Hope that's a fair enough answer.

[J.c. Sherman]

YBB 103. Accept no substitute. I started on one, have owned a few... and every time I sell it, I get another.

Why they ever abandoned that design is more perplexing than string theory.