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Even numbers are bell front, 20, 22, 24, 34 etc. and odd numbers are raincatchers 21,25 etc. For my taste a section of these would sound great in a concert band. Our high school had two guys, one on a 24 and one on a 25 and it worked really well. The all District Pa. band in 1970 had all Mirafones which belonged to the host school and we were all encouraged to use them because they were so superior to what we were playing on.Jay Krush and I were the first two chairs and both had 24J's. On the record, which I still have, it's all Conn. Clear and huge and the Mirafone sound, all six of them, just got swallowed up. If I was a band director and there was a decently made clone that was priced right I'd get a set and a set of stands to hold them. But that's just me. Ed

I absolutely love the 2Xj series of tubas. However, I think I would rather find an old one and restore it, rather than purchasing a "new" one. The craftsmanship, and materials used in both U.S and "other" instrument manufacturers is not as good as it once was.

I've never seen a 2XJ that spent much time in a classroom environment that was not beat all to hell. I think it was a mistake to sell them to schools in the first place.

They came along when the industry was marketing horns with the 'bigger is better' mentality and buyers were basically 'duped' into buying them.

I agree that the horns are wonderful and glorious but not in the hands of school kids... or college kids for that matter.

I agree that 20Js would get beat to hell in a school setting, but the fact is ANY horn will get beat to hell in the wrong hands, be it a JinBao, a Miraphone, a King, or a Conn. If people are getting rotary tubas (e.g the Yamaha rotary which I've seen more than on a few occasions), which have much more complicated mechanics and are more delicate, for schools, why not these?

I wouldn't mind if we had more cloned original upright bells to go around for these horns. The current few original upright bells existing don't come up cheap and are sometimes in beat to hell condition as well. In the end, it will heavily depend on price like anything else (if someone has enough buy a $10K Chinese clone, please let me know how to get a job with whoever you're working for).

I would agree with everyone else, that these are some mighty fine players though. Just search "20J cam" on Youtube to let JSU Marching Southerners give you a feel for what kind of foundation is possible with a set of these. Generally speaking more IS better. If I was a band director, and these came up at affordable prices, I would get a set and keep them locked up except when used and pick up some dirt cheap "scrap" tubas for kids to take home for practice. It would also be wise to let only kids that have demonstrated responsibility in not wrecking instruments to use them.

I think having kids play on large tubas can be good for their development. I played 3/4 tubas throughout high school because I lived in a rich "jock" town that had a pathetic music program. The 3/4 was much easier to control. It gave me a solid foundation on playing but I feel it definitely hindered me as there are definitely fundamental playing skills that are easier to reinforce with larger instruments (like that all important air support and clean clear articulation). The larger horn may even encourage more players to enjoy tuba playing, as it is generally a lot more fun to play on a large tuba than a small one.

Gonna agree with Lost here. Would prefer the tone and sound from two 2xJs to support the ensemble over five 3/4 tubas. One of the biggest problems is the two case problem. While totally possible to design a one piece case, it would be enormous. Jacksonville State University doesn't seem to be complaining though. It helps a lot when they attach wheels to the case. Also a lighter weight foam case, as seems to be the norm with Chinese instruments will also help.

When I was looking for a bell-front horn for outdoor performances, I went straight for a 20J. Having played one occasionally in school, there was no question in my mind this was what I wanted. I would have gone for a 24J had one been available, but they don't come up for sale very often.

I managed to find an upright bell for this beast, so now I can use it indoors and not have to worry about throwing The Section off balance. The upright bell is 24-inches wide, not sure how the 21-inch Kanstul bell previously mentioned would compare.

So I vote "Yes", with the proviso that it should retain the short-action valves, should be available in 3- or 4-valve configuration, that a CC version should be made and that it should have both bells available.

Meanwhile, there are several 20Js on eBay.

I voted no just because I wouldn't buy one. I had a 21j for a while, for which I paid $500. It did sound authoritative, but it was an ergonomic nightmare, I thought. If any of the importers think they can make money on it obviously they should have at it. I'm not "against" it, whatever that would mean.

As to what school systems buy cloned tubas, Tom McGrady could list quite a lot. They represent the bulk of his sales, if I understand correctly.

Top-action? nah...

Front-action with four pistons? YES!!

Recording bell or Upright bell? Yes.

Do the 2XJ tubas and 20K/40K sousaphones use the same diameter for the bell ferrules?

If so, I might want an upright bell for my 40K. Likely more affordable from a Chinese serial production than from any custom maker.

Klaus

Heavy_Metal wrote: So I vote "Yes", with the proviso that it should retain the short-action valves, should be available in 3- or 4-valve configuration, that a CC version should be made and that it should have both bells available.

That sounds more like "No" to me.

Art Hovey wrote:Front-action with four pistons? YES!!

This sounds enough like something that really could happen, that it made me wonder if there already is something more or less like it. But those proportions are way out of fashion, aren't they? The big bows and extravagant bell flare, but not so huge conical part of the bell (that's what I see in the pictures, anyway.) Maybe not an ideal design for intonation etc.?

TubaTinker wrote:I've never seen a 2XJ that spent much time in a classroom environment that was not beat all to hell.

Probably too true. OTOH, most schools had them for decades. Try to get that out of the clones or even a 186. How many of those super trashed 186 Miraphones have we seen on fleabay. When I was in HS in the 70's we had some 20Js and 25Js from the '50's - they didn't look great but played well.

I think it was a mistake to sell them to schools in the first place.

I don't agree. They were reasonably priced, could take a beating, played well and could put a real floor under a group.

They came along when the industry was marketing horns with the 'bigger is better' mentality and buyers were basically 'duped' into buying them.

I don't know about this. Most of the back in the day band directors I've had the pleasure to meet seemed like pretty smart & shrewd guys who were running a program at a time when schools didn't just throw money around and expected stuff to last. I also think the bigger is better came around much later than the hey day of these horns. I've always thought that attitude came with the Solti/Jacobs/Chicago Sound and the resulting rush to emulate.

It seems from the old photos I've seen a lot of schools had maybe one or two tuba players. A lot easier to get a floor under a group with a couple of 20J's. Plus a lot of schools didn't have school auditoriums and played in gyms. The forward bell worked outside and could be used well in pep bands. I think rural schools back in the day would especially find the 20j appealing for its versatility, ease of playing, durability and price.

Now I'm probably biased as I started playing tuba in 7th grade on a 20J. I found it easy to play and never found the size a problem to hold. I also didn't know tubas could have "problem" notes until later on in college when I first played CC and F tubas.

As far as bringing them back I don't know. It seems that these days you find more kids of all sizes and genders playing early on. I can see how a 5 ft. 90 lb 7th grade girl might struggle to hold and have enough air for a 20j. So I think band directors have to take that into account on what tuba they buy with limited funds. The tuba also seems more and more popular with kids. One of the groups I play in has a lot of school music directors and even some of the middle schools now have 6-8 kids playing tuba -so the need to have a big 6/4 because you only have one kid playing isn't as much a problem any more to a large extent.

imperialbari wrote:Do the 2XJ tubas and 20K/40K sousaphones use the same diameter for the bell ferrules?

If so, I might want an upright bell for my 40K. Likely more affordable from a Chinese serial production than from any custom maker.

Klaus

The tenon diameter is the same for the 2XJ and the 2XK... 7 1/4".

If Jimbao or whoever was going to clone this TYPE of horn I vote for the Martin Mammoth. The valves have only a slightly longer throw and would probably be simpler to make. But mostly they are just better sounding horns. I played 24/5 J's through high school and the first couple of years in the Army form 65' to 73' then again at Disney on and off from 83' to 2000' and liked them fine but when I stumbled onto a Martin it was quite an eye opener. And while I know front action valves are preferred by many top valves make it easy to turn pages and they wear better because they're not on their sides but pretty much up and down. Also, the first valve slide is totally accessable for those of us who are slide pullers. I'm not trying to imply that they would be preferable to anything that is currently in production. They just have a uniquely beautiful sound unlike anything I've ever heard and there wouldn't be so many makes and models out there if everyone wanted the same thing. And, of course, they could also clone a front banger. Ed

EdFirth wrote:If Jimbao or whoever was going to clone this TYPE of horn I vote for the Martin Mammoth.

Ditto.

Art Hovey wrote:Top-action? nah...

Front-action with four pistons? YES!!

Recording bell or Upright bell? Yes.

This one is already sold, but they are out there and I'd love to see an option for a large horn with both bells: http://tubameister.com/2014/05/conn-26j ... ding-bass/" target="_blank" target="_blank

MartyNeilan wrote:

EdFirth wrote:If Jimbao or whoever was going to clone this TYPE of horn I vote for the Martin Mammoth.

Ditto.

tritto.

That notorious flat partial plays quite in tune on my short leadpipe 2xJ but is quite out of tune on the longer leadpipe 2xJ. So it may be an easier fix than initially suspected.

In tune with open on the short leadpipe and in tune with 1-3 on the longer leadpipe. It would probably be best to make the horn tubing slightly shorter (maybe a few inches) as most people keep their main tuning slides slightly pulled out anyways. Then you always have the chance to push/pull slides if need be. In this case, pushing in the main slide for the F and E. If the tubing length is too long causing notes to be flat (as is common with that partial on 2xJs, you can only lip up so much. Simply using the laws of physics to improve the horn.

I have a 36/7 J (both bells) which is the 26/7 J with regular pistons. It looks almost exactly like the silver 26 on Lee Stofer's site and it's a winner. There aren't many of them out there and I'm going to part ways with it soon due to retirement. Stay tuned in the For Sale section for further developments or if you can't wait shoot me a Pm.Ed

I wonder if this horn has the 2XJ series' problem that doesn't get talked about much: bouncy valves. Every 2XJ I ever played had valves that would bounce on a fast release, and it occasionally made quick passages difficult to play cleanly.