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I suspect it's just tradition more than anything, but all this "now that I'm going to college, I need a CC tuba" talk has got me thinking: why don't we start kids on CC? Then the fingerings are the same from trumpet, french horn, and treble clef baritone. For kids switching from trumpet, it's just learning a new clef instead of a clef and new fingerings. Of course, British Brass Band doesn't have this problem. And it eliminates the "need" to switch to CC when going to college.

Discuss...

Truthfully, I am inclined to believe that this is largely in part due to highly valued communist ideals in the current U.S. community.

A good read: http://www.rogerbobo.com/musical_articles/eb.shtml" target="_blank

Bobo lands on Eb as the ideal horn for beginning students.

-T. J.

In band:

Trumpets/Cornets are in Bb
Trombones are in Bb
Euphoniums are in Bb
"French" horns are in stupid
Tubas should be in bee flat?

ONE OF THESE THINGS IS NOT LIKE THE OTHER

Having taught elementarty and middle school students for over 30 years, I am an advocate of starting students on EEb tubas. Starting pitches lay in a more accesssible range. Smaller mouthpiece is easier to focus air. At the higher levels, EEb can do it all. The British figured that out a long time ago.

The general unavailability of 3/4-size CC instruments, and the hefty price premium CC instruments command versus BB-flat, conspire against their use as a beginning instrument.

I think a good case can be made for starting kids out on the E-flat, and migrating some of them to BB-flat later in their development. For Band literature, a tuba section incorporating BOTH instruments is, to my ears, much more sonically interesting than having just one or the other.

Bb tuba was a really easy transition when I joined the dark side from my (Bb) bass clarinet. It has also become very useful when I get gigs on (BBb) sousaphones. I used a C in college and really enjoy how that particular horn responds, sounds, and feels, but lately I've been using a 186 Bb for continuity. I think since most of the professional jobs I've found are on sousas, and since most of those are in Bb (full disclosure, I've got an Eb sousa but think it's pretty useless), it's nice to be able to default back to the original fingerings on gigs.
Of course, I started playing tuba in high school coming from the clarinets, so I can hardly be considered a typical case.

Not sure how it started...

...but the reason now is because that's what the schools already own.

I often wonder why we teach bass clef at all! I started on Eb in the mid-fifties. The rational was easy... a trumpet player could be switch to Eb tuba without much trouble.

In some ways... I think the Brits 'got it right' when it comes to beginning band students.

Tuba Guy wrote:Bb tuba was a really easy transition when I joined the dark side from my (Bb) bass clarinet. It has also become very useful when I get gigs on (BBb) sousaphones. I used a C in college and really enjoy how that particular horn responds, sounds, and feels, but lately I've been using a 186 Bb for continuity. I think since most of the professional jobs I've found are on sousas, and since most of those are in Bb (full disclosure, I've got an Eb sousa but think it's pretty useless), it's nice to be able to default back to the original fingerings on gigs.
Of course, I started playing tuba in high school coming from the clarinets, so I can hardly be considered a typical case.

I also came to the tuba from bass clarinet. One of the best decisions I ever made. Tuba led to electric bass, which led to string bass, which led to...lots of paying gigs!

Do they make a sousa in C? What happens at football games?

My sister has an Eb sousa, gorgeous tone but it's as heavy as a Bb and the case won't fit in the car, so I'm not sure there's any advantage.

58mark wrote:nope, the fingerings are the same as C trumpet. When a whole brass class plays a Bb concert scale and they are all playing BB fingerings, everybody starts on the fundamental (ok, maybe not the horns unless they use the Bb side)

Also, so much band lit is focused on flat keys, the Bb tuba plays the easiest in the key of Bb and Eb, which are the most common band keys

First part I quite agree with.
But "Band Lit is focused on flat keys"? Yes, maybe in first or second year, but surely thereafter it makes not a bit of difference? Just like orchestra in reverse... I'm not advocating starting kids on C tuba but a Bb scale on C tuba is no more 'difficult' than on a Bb tuba.

Anyway I'm English - I don't know what you guys do over there!
As has been said, we tend to start kids off on Eb since they have usually come from a transposed Treble Clef brass instrument - making bass clef concert pitch tuba an easy read (BC concert Bb reads 'like' TC 'G').

Weril makes a decent small CC tuba that would be appropriate for beginners, and it's fairly inexpensive. But what happens to the poor kid when he/she gets to high school and is expected to play sousaphone in a football band?

My father always started kids off on Eb tuba and moved them to BBb when they were big enough. I went through that process, and so did he. But that was before small BBb tubas like the YBB-103 and 105 and their clones became available.

I have found that a kid starting on baritone horn or euphonium can easily switch to BBb tuba when he or she has grown big enough. Not having to learn new fingerings makes the switch much easier.

Why do we start kids on BBb? Because Conn does not make the 15" Eb tuba anymore, so all we are left with is grainy small bore 3/4 BBb.

There are far too few of us left on this 'serv that remember getting started on E-flat. I kept playing E-flat until I started college and had a great little horn to boot. Of course I was told that "big boys don't play E-flat in college" and first switched to BB-flat, then to CC, later to F, and sometimes I wish I'd just kept playing E-flat.

Of course the REASON educators used to do it was a little depressing - on the whole you'd take the worst trumpet player (or the biggest, or both) and plunk the horn in their lap and tell 'em the fingering was the same. Ignorance, of course is bliss - especially if you're a middle school band director and the ignorant one is your student.

Long live E-flat! And God Save the Queen!

Completely unscientific analysis - every old (1900 - 1950) Eb I have ever played had severe intonation issues - many horns being simply unplayable. I'm sure there were some Eb's made back then that were quite good -but I think they were few and far between. Ones that were playable needed a lot of alternative fingerings which is a little much to ask of a beginning player I would think. The ones with better intonation didn't have much of a bottom and you need that bottom in a band far more than you need a Eb tuba playing the upper line. BBb's just seem to naturally have better intonation at a more affordable build/price point than a comparable CC tuba & without the need for an expensive 5th valve. So I can see why band directors drifted toward BBb instead of Eb or CC tubas. Throw in the fact of having built up an inventory of BBb tubas and BBb sousaphones over time & I can also see why they wouldn't now start moving toward the modern Eb's with good intonation or some of the less costly CC's.

I think the answer is obvious. Marching band sousaphones owned by the school were BBb. Most schools could not afford both concert horns and sousaphones. Even an affluent school went to BBb because they wanted kids to play the sousaphones in marching bands. I was one of the upgraded kids from cornet. Logically, going to an Eb would have been a quicker learning choice, but the school had "newer" plastic sousaphones and one old brass Eb. The switch of fingerings took a few weeks, but not overwhelming. I know play an Eb by my choice not the schools.

tofu wrote:Completely unscientific analysis - every old (1900 - 1950) Eb I have ever played had severe intonation issues - many horns being simply unplayable. I'm sure there were some Eb's made back then that were quite good -but I think they were few and far between.

Could it also be that, by the time you got a hold of them, they were old and kind of leaky?

58mark wrote: As a rule, I believe the larger the Eb, the more intonation problems it usually has.

That sure makes sense - provided we're talking about commonly available sizes, where "small" means more or less natural tuba family proportions and "large" means unnaturally distorted. The notion that an Eb might serve as a contrabass tuba has been both its selling point, and its curse. If only we could start kids on F tuba -- think of all the kids wasting their time on F horn who could be saved!

58mark wrote: As a rule, I believe the larger the Eb, the more intonation problems it usually has.

I disagree. I think intonation issues for Eb are like any other style horn, it depends on the horn and the maker. My Martin, with is an old large Eb is just fine. The smaller ones seem to have more problems than the larger Martins. The Yorks play beautifully. I've play tested some old Conns that are very questionable.