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In my current situation, I can only justify one CC tuba. In that I do both orchestra and brass quintet, a middle-of-the-road CC tuba is warranted. I once owned a 5/4 Rudy Meinl. It was great for the orchestra but way too much tuba for the brass quintet. Unless you have a contract job with a large orchestra and can justify several CC tubas, the 4/4 tuba is the best all-around contrabass option.

bloke wrote:I believe many tuba players are looking for a tuba that offers the resonance and dynamic range of a sousaphone, yet the clarity of concert tuba and the agility of a baritone horn. "Weighing less than 25 lbs." is a bonus.

&@#^! - My secret is out!

bloke wrote:I believe many tuba players are looking for a tuba that offers the resonance and dynamic range of a sousaphone, yet the clarity of concert tuba and the agility of a baritone horn. "Weighing less than 25 lbs." is a bonus.

And it should cost less than $1,000.

Someone more in the know on big tubas can correct me if I misstep, but it seems to me that oversized horns can have wonderfully warm, room-filling sounds, but...

- They are much more costly
- Their sound can be a bit unfocused
- They (generally) require more air
- They (generally) aren't as agile
- Their intonation can be...creative...at times

Of course, all horns are different, so think of the above as a set of guidelines instead of rules. Huge horns generally break the rules of brass instrument design in that they feature an area of faster-than-normal expansion in their tubing that allows for them to achieve large dimensions. In the case of large German horns, the taper is often a bit too rapid through the lead pipe to achieve a very large bore at the valves and then slowing down as you approach the bell. In the case of American-style horns, the expansion is often not until after the valves, but continues through to the end. The place where the too-quick expansion starts or is reigned in will have a large impact on the above bullet points.

Would I love to have one around for when the huge tuba sound would be useful? Yes, absolutely. It's no accident that many of the greatest players in the world use these as their primary instruments. Can I justify owning one for my purposes? Well...

Evan "not a BAT expert...but he'll take a look" Callaway

There are so many good analogies between tubas and cars, this is another one.

Most people just need "a car" to drive around, and have "enough" space to do most things. They even call this a mid-size vehicle (like a 4/4 tuba). For most people, that's all they ever need. You can have a fancy mid-size car or a plain mid-size car, but the basic idea is still the same.

A 5/4 or 6/4 tuba is like a large SUV, like a Suburban. It's not efficient, it's more than most people need, and it has a different set of strengths and weaknesses than a smaller car. Yes, it will get you where you need to go. If you need to haul a lot of stuff (or people), it's possibly a good choice. But if it's just for you and getting around town... it's a little silly. Some people will still drive a huge SUV because they think it's cool. But most people will realize it's overkill, even if they *like* it or *want* to drive something huge like that.

I love the idea of a 5/4 horn, nice big BBb tuba. I love the reality of a 3/4 horn, carrying it, storing it and playing it. No, I don't have the resonance that my section mate with a 191 has; I also can carry my own horn, which a 5/4 horn would be pressing. I had the opportunity to play a friends "Shillophone" 5/4; ergos were way wrong for me. I loved the sound, but was in pain after 1/2 a rehearsal.

bort wrote:There are so many good analogies between tubas and cars, this is another one.

Most people just need "a car" to drive around, and have "enough" space to do most things. They even call this a mid-size vehicle (like a 4/4 tuba). For most people, that's all they ever need. You can have a fancy mid-size car or a plain mid-size car, but the basic idea is still the same.

A 5/4 or 6/4 tuba is like a large SUV, like a Suburban. It's not efficient, it's more than most people need, and it has a different set of strengths and weaknesses than a smaller car. Yes, it will get you where you need to go. If you need to haul a lot of stuff (or people), it's possibly a good choice. But if it's just for you and getting around town... it's a little silly. Some people will still drive a huge SUV because they think it's cool. But most people will realize it's overkill, even if they *like* it or *want* to drive something huge like that.

Driving in a packed city ideally needs something small and agile. Something like a Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic or one of the even smaller cars coming out of Asia. This could be analogous to a 3/4 instrument or even little guys like the Tournester tuba and the "Bubbie". They can and have been driven across country but Seattle to Miami in a Smart Car with four or five suitcases strapped to a rack on the roof does not sound like a lot of fun.

bloke wrote:Someone can also buy a Suburban and drive it around with a gentle accelerator, gentle gear shifts, and a gentle brake.

True. I was shooting the breeze with a few tuba players and one of them was playing a Holton 345 in a church quartet. I asked him if that ever was a little much. He said it worked just fine but don't overpower the other three and the room.

You could use a huge suv with a gentle foot. But if I'm driving cross country, I'd rather be in something average size (camry or so) with a big engine so that when you put the hammer down, it lets you go for more than a half mile/bar. I don't remember where I heard it, but I've always been on the philosophy that you should take the biggest thing you can handle well and learn how to make it act like a range rover or land cruiser. Yes, my students love the car references...i think

I found myself essentially unable to play big tubas.
The first CC I played was an Alex. I couldn't get "the sound" or anything close. A piggy was great. F was even better. I'd played a couple of Martins through the years and loved the sound, more from hearing others play them. But I wanted the sound, and when the opportunity presented, I have that sound. I dont play it enough, with the 2 case, rest, music rack, and other stuff issues, but it is my favorite sound, and I am able to play it. It's what I needed, just as F was.

I am just an amateur player, but being a former band director, I have certain sound in my head that I want to achieve when I play. I always think of my tuba sound from an ensemble viewpoint and not as a soloist. I get that sound with my Holton 345 BBb tuba. I play with a couple community bands and they love the sound coming from the tuba section, as I get compliments all the time. My 345 is very efficient and easy to control, but best of all, it creates the type of tuba sound that you don't just hear, but that you feel. That is why I am willing to lug it around to rehearsals and performances even though I am over 60 years old now. So it really comes down to what type sound makes a player happy. Play the horn that makes you feel good!

I owned two 6/4 contrabasses, a Cerveny 601CC and a Conn 25J. The Cerveny took more air than I could control, and I was unable to play it without playing way, way too loud. The Conn, on the other hand, could be played anywhere from room-shaking to a whisper. I'd probably still have it if I hadn't decided to make the switch to Eb full-time. (That and the fact that I'm getting older and punier, and the weight issues were more than I could handle.)

I now have what I consider the best of both worlds, a Conn Monster Eb that qualifies as a 6/4. There may be bigger Eb tubas, but I haven't seen one.

Actually, I do.

GC wrote:I owned two 6/4 contrabasses, a Cerveny 601CC and a Conn 25J. The Cerveny took more air than I could control, and I was unable to play it without playing way, way too loud. The Conn, on the other hand, could be played anywhere from room-shaking to a whisper.

Great that you learned how to corral that big beast 25J because it has the reputation as being somewhat of a blunderbuss. I guess reputation isn't everything.

IMHO, one of the issues that cause people to have trouble controlling a 2XJ is the use of too large a mouthpiece, or one with such a big throat that there's almost no blowing resistance. A little resistance can go a long way in helping control.

I really think that the reputation for these beasts' being hard to control is way overblown (pun intended).

GC wrote:IMHO, one of the issues that cause people to have trouble controlling a 2XJ is the use of too large a mouthpiece, or one with such a big throat that there's almost no blowing resistance. A little resistance can go a long way in helping control.
I really think that the reputation for these beasts' being hard to control is way overblown (pun intended).

Indeed. A PT82 will go far in helping control such beasts, and is even advertised as such: "Model PT82 is a high-dynamic range, German style mouthpiece, especially designed for large or otherwise mellow sounding instruments. The low register response is particularly good." Having used one on large beasts on occasion, I concur.

I tend to believe that notwithstanding the pressures of the economic system, one tends to gravitate to the unconventional - that which in this particular case manifests itself in large 5/4+ sized instruments. Ultimately (while considering the obvious qualms already mentioned) society tends to dictate the way of life an individual should follow. Therefore it should be of no surprise when the common man falls to the fascist trap of purchasing a deemed socially acceptable model which in this instance manifests itself in the embodiment of a 4/4 or smaller instrument.

That's easy for you to say ...

Hey, we play tubas. We are already unconventional.

After switching to EEb (981) I've never had a need for more sound, and have received compliments from members of the orchestra and community band I play in. I will say that I agree with other posters on Tubenet, you can step on the gas on an EEb and it will give you a nice, full sound.

Adam