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Hi everyone!

Just curious as to your opinions on going to school abroad (outside of the US) for tuba performance? Anybody have any experience/currently doing it? Given the ball-busting prices to attend school here in the US, I'm wondering how it'd be like to instead study abroad where it often is much cheaper (at least in some European countries) just to go to school; obviously travel, living expenses, etc. factor in the overall cost of moving out somewhere else, but I'm just considering the financial price of school itself.

Although I'm mainly asking about "graduate" school abroad, I guess it could really apply to any kind of schooling done internationally (study abroad programs in undergraduate school maybe?). What are some players/places you'd recommend? From some basic googling, maybe Walter Hilgers at Franz Lizst in Germany... maybe Patrick Harrild at RAM? Owen Slade at RCM? Go back in time and go to Tokyo to learn from Mr. Bobo?? I honestly don't know much about the tuba scene outside the US, hoping to get some input/info from everybody.

Admittedly, part of the appeal is studying abroad itself but I was just curious as to the viability of going to school internationally. It's not a well-thought out plan by ANY means, more of just me being curious if anybody has done it!

Cheers!

I think this depends on what your goals are.

If you want to (and can) go study with a great European teacher (which I'll assume is what you aspire to, since you mention Hilgers first; I know nothing about Japan, etc.) with the goal of getting a job performing, and spend less on it than you would have to here, it might work. I don't know. You would just have to do the math.

If anywhere on your list of fallback goals is teaching in an American university, I can say that in my field (not music) it won't likely fly at the entry level. You'd need to stay over there and make your reputation as a scholar and teacher. Then you could come back. And by the way, in my world all this is reversible as well: an American degree doesn't do you that much good in Europe at the entry level either. An American scholar/teacher in Europe has to prove that you go deep and can handle the kritische Geist. A European scholar in America has to prove he or she has enough breadth to do more than one thing.

If it's different in music, all bets are off, but that's my experience.

talleyrand wrote:I think this depends on what your goals are.

If you want to (and can) go study with a great European teacher (which I'll assume is what you aspire to, since you mention Hilgers first; I know nothing about Japan, etc.) with the goal of getting a job performing, and spend less on it than you would have to here, it might work. I don't know. You would just have to do the math.

If anywhere on your list of fallback goals is teaching in an American university, I can say that in my field (not music) it won't likely fly at the entry level. You'd need to stay over there and make your reputation as a scholar and teacher. Then you could come back. And by the way, in my world all this is reversible as well: an American degree doesn't do you that much good in Europe at the entry level either. An American scholar/teacher in Europe has to prove that you go deep and can handle the kritische Geist. A European scholar in America has to prove he or she has enough breadth to do more than one thing.

If it's different in music, all bets are off, but that's my experience.

My goals are ultimately to play in an orchestra/brass ensemble/everything else I will need to be playing in, and probably teaching somewhere at the same time too. I guess a big part of the question is to get a sense of how the tuba scene is like abroad and how it compares to the US too... hard to do that without actually going there myself (which is why I was hoping someone had some stories to share!)

I can't say my ultimate goal is to teach in an American university, though it definitely is something I heavily considered/assumed would be pretty much necessary to complement playing in a pro setting. That is definitely some very useful and interesting insight, thanks! I have been doing some research into music psychology and the perception of (organized) sound from a few neurological/evolutionary psychological books and sources as well, so maybe I can end up doing something more academically-based either here or abroad.. who knows! I definitely am keeping in mind trying to be versatile and having a varied palette of skills.

mammagamma wrote:I have been doing some research into music psychology and the perception of (organized) sound from a few neurological/evolutionary psychological books and sources as well, so maybe I can end up doing something more academically-based either here or abroad.. who knows!

The problem with this is that we all know. That is, anyone with experience in pursuing a career in academia knows the routine. If you don't get a recognized degree from a recognized department (in the US or Europe or Japan or wherever), and you haven't worked with the "right people" who will provide you with exemplary references, there is NO WAY you can "end up doing something more academically-based". It won't happen. If you want to be an academic, then you have to play the academic game from the beginning and conform to the requirements and expectations -- and compete with everyone else who is doing this. The subject (music, astrophysics, molecular biology, political science, ...) doesn't matter. Don't even begin to think that you can crack into an academic career in any other way. It is the way of the world.

If you want an academic career, then you have to target this specifically and work towards it in the traditional way. Nothing else will work.

I want to say that Dr. Joe Skillen (LSU) studied abroad in Sweeden. Perhaps you can shoot him an email to pick his brain.

If I recall correctly, John William Banther studied abroad in Amsterdam with Perry Hoogendijk. He would probably be a good one to reach out to, too.

If you want to study abroad at a university in a foreign country through a US university, you will have not save any money over taking classes in the US. You'll pay for the classes through an American university, and then you'll have to cover travel expenses, food, etc. It'll be fun but expensive, but you probably already knew that.

Now, you probably want to actually study at a foreign university as an actual student, and you're probably thinking about the lower prices of universities/colleges/conservatories in Europe. I had looked into this as well, and here the problem arises: you aren't a citizen of the European Union. The reason universities in Europe look so damn cheap is because the governments subsidize education there. That's great, but you only get to pay that low price if you're a citizen of the EU, which I'm guessing you aren't. If you aren't a citizen of the EU, most institutions of higher education in Europe will cost more than even the most expensive private universities in the States. Additionally, you'll then have to pay the enormously high costs of moving across an ocean to live in an unfamiliar land.

Best of luck to you.

Ah. You're also wondering about Tokyo. Tokyo is not a good city for a university student. It's a huge econ hub, the prices are outrageous, and you will always be viewed as a foreigner by the Japanese. It's unlikely that the Japanese would hire a foreigner to do gigs, so forget about having too many jobs in college. They aren't used to diversity. Being in the commuter train stations during rush hour is absolutely horrifying. It's roughly triple the insanity of New York without the charm. Alcoholism is rampant. Morning rush hour is at seven AM and evening rush hour is at 9 PM. Then all the businessmen go out, get smashed, and wander around the train stations at one in the morning talking to themselves. It's awesome, but I don't think you'd like it for college at all. On the other hand, being taught by Roger Bobo would be a wonderful opportunity.

ghmerrill wrote:

mammagamma wrote:I have been doing some research into music psychology and the perception of (organized) sound from a few neurological/evolutionary psychological books and sources as well, so maybe I can end up doing something more academically-based either here or abroad.. who knows!

The problem with this is that we all know. That is, anyone with experience in pursuing a career in academia knows the routine. If you don't get a recognized degree from a recognized department (in the US or Europe or Japan or wherever), and you haven't worked with the "right people" who will provide you with exemplary references, there is NO WAY you can "end up doing something more academically-based". It won't happen. If you want to be an academic, then you have to play the academic game from the beginning and conform to the requirements and expectations -- and compete with everyone else who is doing this. The subject (music, astrophysics, molecular biology, political science, ...) doesn't matter. Don't even begin to think that you can crack into an academic career in any other way. It is the way of the world.

If you want an academic career, then you have to target this specifically and work towards it in the traditional way. Nothing else will work.

I see where you are coming from, and I think that definitely is true for a huge majority of cases; yet there are still people out there who are successful in their current fields coming from completely different backgrounds, academic or professional (call it naivety or impetus, but Francis Crick comes to mind). I don't mean to imply I would ever reach that caliber, but to give up on something before even attempting it is the worst mindset one can take, IMO.

Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:If you want to study abroad at a university in a foreign country through a US university, you will have not save any money over taking classes in the US. You'll pay for the classes through an American university, and then you'll have to cover travel expenses, food, etc. It'll be fun but expensive, but you probably already knew that.

Now, you probably want to actually study at a foreign university as an actual student, and you're probably thinking about the lower prices of universities/colleges/conservatories in Europe. I had looked into this as well, and here the problem arises: you aren't a citizen of the European Union. The reason universities in Europe look so damn cheap is because the governments subsidize education there. That's great, but you only get to pay that low price if you're a citizen of the EU, which I'm guessing you aren't. If you aren't a citizen of the EU, most institutions of higher education in Europe will cost more than even the most expensive private universities in the States. Additionally, you'll then have to pay the enormously high costs of moving across an ocean to live in an unfamiliar land.

Best of luck to you.

Which schools did you look into? From the few I've researched the prices are still WAY cheaper than schools here in the US, often twice and sometimes 3x cheaper than the average price for even public schools here. Granted, moving costs are high but looking JUST at tuition, the prices are drastically different. I was looking at some schools in the Netherlands (where Hendrik Jan Renes teaches e.g. Rotterdam, KC) and they are way cheaper... I'm still really interested in your own research though.

Tokyo/Japan in general was always nothing I really considered largely for the extreme costs of living there and such; still, it's interesting you assumed I'm not Japanese though and would be considered a foreigner (not to say I am Japanese or not, that's probably not important )

THE TUBA wrote:I want to say that Dr. Joe Skillen (LSU) studied abroad in Sweeden. Perhaps you can shoot him an email to pick his brain.

If I recall correctly, John William Banther studied abroad in Amsterdam with Perry Hoogendijk. He would probably be a good one to reach out to, too.

Definitely will do, thanks so much for the tip!!

Make sure you are looking the 'non EU' price for tuition...as stated before, its a HUGE difference.

When I was at the RNCM in 2004-05, tuition for EU/UK citizens was something like £1800 per year...for non-EU citizens it was £10,000 (which at that time was about $19,000/yr). There was VERY little in terms of scholarship money available for non-EU citizens at the school though I think most or all of us (non-EU students that I knew) received some merit scholarship money (that was applied to housing costs....which was also NOT cheap). I haven't looked at their tuition prices lately, but I doubt its all that much cheaper now.

And if you want to study on the Continent, get ready to really pay some serious money to just live there. Holland and Germany are definitely NOT cheap places to live...I know...I travel there a lot.

I don't regret my time in Manchester, nor the expense. It was a lifelong dream come true to study extensively with Roger Bobo and I unexpectedly was able to have studies with James Gourlay, Mel Culbertson, and several other masterclasses with players I would not have experienced as easily in the US (Haken Hardenberger, Rostropovich, etc). I also became a member of the Fairey Band and travelled all over the UK (and even 3 amazing days in Vienna!!!) playing with one of the best brass bands in the world...nothing quite like it.

But I didn't go there with the intention of padding my resume for graduate applications or thinking 'oh this will surely get me a job later in the US'. It was an invaluable life experience and one of great personal and professional growth during a difficult time in my life.

If you want to be an American orchestral tubist and/or teach at an American university, I'd highly recommend you go study with the top American orchestral players or get into a top American university program that has a tested pedigree for successful graduates. This is a business that is really about not only 'who you know', but moreso 'who knows you'.

joshwirt wrote:I'd highly recommend you go study with the top American orchestral players or get into a top American university program that has a tested pedigree for successful graduates. This is a business that is really about not only 'who you know', but moreso 'who knows you'.

This is very true. Also, to further elaborate on the above, be in a city with a great professional orchestra that, yearly, attracts a worldwide array of guest conductors. In Philadelphia, for example, guest conductors of the caliber of Muti and Abaddo came through regularly. When thay had a tuba opening in their home orchestras, they would ask my teacher, Paul Krzywicki, if he had any students that were worth hearing. That way, you may get in on auditions that are never made public. Also, large cities tend to be more culturally active with more free-lance playing opportunities than lesser known places.

Lastly and most importantly, once accepted at the educational institution of your choice, work VERY hard to be the best player in the school. In the audition world, who knows you will get you in the door. What comes out of your bell will win you the audition!

If you want to study in Germany, be prepared to have a BBb tuba.

I went to a masterclass with a top German player, and he mentioned a program where he has 1 or 2 students. I don't remember all the details, but he said that a BBb tuba was an outright requirement -- he wouldn't know how to teach you on a CC tuba.

However, I think the one "bonus" of an abroad program (especially somewhere like Germany or Austria) is the cultural aspect of music performance. It's been almost 10 years since I went to Austria, but with the infusion of music into culture, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I only played tuba there for 10 days, but it's had that much of a lasting impression on me. If you could swing that for a year or two, you might have an incredible time. Not sure what that means career-wise, but if you're young and have the drive and desire, whatever you do at 20 years old isn't going to hurt you later on.

joshwirt wrote:Make sure you are looking the 'non EU' price for tuition...as stated before, its a HUGE difference.

When I was at the RNCM in 2004-05, tuition for EU/UK citizens was something like £1800 per year...for non-EU citizens it was £10,000 (which at that time was about $19,000/yr). There was VERY little in terms of scholarship money available for non-EU citizens at the school though I think most or all of us (non-EU students that I knew) received some merit scholarship money (that was applied to housing costs....which was also NOT cheap). I haven't looked at their tuition prices lately, but I doubt its all that much cheaper now.

And if you want to study on the Continent, get ready to really pay some serious money to just live there. Holland and Germany are definitely NOT cheap places to live...I know...I travel there a lot.

I don't regret my time in Manchester, nor the expense. It was a lifelong dream come true to study extensively with Roger Bobo and I unexpectedly was able to have studies with James Gourlay, Mel Culbertson, and several other masterclasses with players I would not have experienced as easily in the US (Haken Hardenberger, Rostropovich, etc). I also became a member of the Fairey Band and travelled all over the UK (and even 3 amazing days in Vienna!!!) playing with one of the best brass bands in the world...nothing quite like it.

But I didn't go there with the intention of padding my resume for graduate applications or thinking 'oh this will surely get me a job later in the US'. It was an invaluable life experience and one of great personal and professional growth during a difficult time in my life.

If you want to be an American orchestral tubist and/or teach at an American university, I'd highly recommend you go study with the top American orchestral players or get into a top American university program that has a tested pedigree for successful graduates. This is a business that is really about not only 'who you know', but moreso 'who knows you'.

Some really great advice here, thanks so much. Glad I was able to hear from someone with some real life experience out there. The UK schools definitely are the most expensive from all the ones I've seen, most of them matching with schools here in the US... that's why I was sort of looking at schools "on the Continent". I have some family that lives in Germany too so I know that just living can be expensive as well.

Although I was considering how a master's degree from abroad might do in the states, ultimately my thinking is more in line with what seems to be your reason for studying at RNCM; I am really looking for as different an experience (not just musically but socially and culturally as well) as possible. Though realistically... I will probably end up throwing an application here or there and seeing what happens just for the hell of it. If it turns out something like it might be possible then hell, I'll run with it and see what happens

hbcrandy wrote:

joshwirt wrote:I'd highly recommend you go study with the top American orchestral players or get into a top American university program that has a tested pedigree for successful graduates. This is a business that is really about not only 'who you know', but moreso 'who knows you'.

This is very true. Also, to further elaborate on the above, be in a city with a great professional orchestra that, yearly, attracts a worldwide array of guest conductors. In Philadelphia, for example, guest conductors of the caliber of Muti and Abaddo came through regularly. When thay had a tuba opening in their home orchestras, they would ask my teacher, Paul Krzywicki, if he had any students that were worth hearing. That way, you may get in on auditions that are never made public. Also, large cities tend to be more culturally active with more free-lance playing opportunities than lesser known places.

Lastly and most importantly, once accepted at the educational institution of your choice, work VERY hard to be the best player in the school. In the audition world, who knows you will get you in the door. What comes out of your bell will win you the audition!

Never thought of those kind of opportunities opening up like that; thanks for the advice!

bort wrote:If you want to study in Germany, be prepared to have a BBb tuba.

I went to a masterclass with a top German player, and he mentioned a program where he has 1 or 2 students. I don't remember all the details, but he said that a BBb tuba was an outright requirement -- he wouldn't know how to teach you on a CC tuba.

However, I think the one "bonus" of an abroad program (especially somewhere like Germany or Austria) is the cultural aspect of music performance. It's been almost 10 years since I went to Austria, but with the infusion of music into culture, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I only played tuba there for 10 days, but it's had that much of a lasting impression on me. If you could swing that for a year or two, you might have an incredible time. Not sure what that means career-wise, but if you're young and have the drive and desire, whatever you do at 20 years old isn't going to hurt you later on.

Yes!!! That's exactly what draws me into applying for master's programs abroad!! I feel that music in general as a social phenomena is treated and viewed (listened?) so differently outside the US that it makes me want to desperately go out there and be part of it. The arts in general are a completely different beast (from my brief travels in the UK and Germany) and it just seems like it is so much more... prevalent in people's lives than it is here.

A big appeal of studying outside the US is that it provides a different approach to tuba playing and music that can be both unique and special... having studied/lived here for a while, I feel a different approach can often provide newer, better ways to create music. Admittedly a lot of this reasoning comes from studying anthropology as a undergraduate but I definitely think there is merit to diversifying one's (musical) background, and just learning about people and life from lots of different perspectives. It makes me really excited to hear about the great time you had studying in Germany/Austria, and it makes me want to seriously consider this crazy idea of studying outside the US

Just show me a picture of the Alps, and I start to get excited. Even now, I still have this crazy idea of moving to Austria (Tirol) for a while. (No, you can't just up and move there for good, but for whatever length of a visa I could get.) My career is such that I work remotely, and I can work just about anywhere that has an internet connection -- I am *extremely* lucky, and have no expectation that this will always be the case. Right now, I choose to work from New York City. Later...who knows? But Austria could be a possibility, if I can afford it! Come to think of it, I remember talking in VERY broken German to one of the tuba players in a small town band, and telling him how much I liked it there, and wanted to come back. His reply was that I should wait 10 years, then come back. I asked why 10 years? He said in English, "you are too young." I was never really sure what that meant, something in the Austrian sense of humor gets lost in translation. That was 9 years ago, I keep thinking of just showing up next year.

Now, would some small Austrian town want an American renter there for a year? Really not sure, but like anywhere else, if you are respectful and do your best to blend in while making your own contributions, everything is okay. The worst thing you can do is to be an obnoxious American and complain about things like warm beer, no ice in your drinks, or no air conditioning (who wants to travel to a place that is exactly like home?).

Anyway, I'm way off topic. My point is, you're young, and you should do whatever you can afford to do. If you can't study abroad there, then spend a week, a few weeks, a month, or a summer... whatever... in another country. It WILL make a lasting impression on you no matter what, especially when you start to spend that time doing "normal" things, and not just sightseeing.